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 FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)

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thebluebox0



Join date : 2012-12-30
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PostSubject: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:18 pm

Greetings All,

Greatest Anime Guild and Naruto Clan cordially invite you to join in a grass roots email campaign to encourage Silicon Studio to do something to protect Fantasica customers from scamming.   We are calling it Fuss at Fanta Friday.   Starting September 6, we ask that all concerned players send the same email directly to Silicon Studio every Friday until they give us a means of albuming safely.  We feel that if enough people send this email every Friday, they will eventually have no choice but to listen and give us, their customers, what we want.   If we overwhelm their staff with emails, they will eventually take the issue seriously.

The email address to send to is included in the header of the email. Please, follow the link below to reach the readable Google Document. Copy and paste the entire document into the body of an email and send it to the address in the header every Friday until Silicon Studio fixes Fantasica.

Thank you for your participation.

TheBlueBox0



https://docs.google.com/document/d/12D1guuGnLqrNQ0UStRuCfvsCoi8fbuBZr5xgqe0wz9A/edit?usp=sharing

Updated 9/20/2013 to include central trading suggestion.


Last edited by thebluebox0 on Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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cliffbiram
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:55 pm

I wish you well in this, but honestly, there are FAR bigger things to petition for.

Top of my list, a bazaar, like Rage of Bahamut. We desperately need a better method to buy and trade.

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thebluebox0



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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:25 pm

A centralized trading center would be good. However, I fear if they did this, they would also implement price controls. I have seen that happen in other games. Imagine what would happen if Lilith was suddenly priced at 8 million Luna by the programmers? What a royal mess.
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cliffbiram
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:05 pm

thebluebox0 wrote:
A centralized trading center would be good.   However, I fear if they did this, they would also implement price controls.   I have seen that happen in other games.   Imagine what would happen if Lilith was suddenly priced at 8 million Luna by the programmers?   What a royal mess.
Obviously you want it to be implemented well, and not terribly.
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Cam
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:17 pm

Album safely? So basically you want everyone to be able to easily album any card that exists? This seems to defeat the challenge of albums.

Every game I've played that has a trading feature also has scammers. Scamming is a jerk thing to do and it sucks but I also don't feel bad for the people that fall victim to this (it's mostly their fault).

Personally I would not send them an email with seemingly made up stories about how they "lost $1200 in revenue over 6 months", and "60% of customers who are scammed stop playing." Telling them how to run their business as if you know better is also laughable. =/

Don't mean to come off as rude. I'm just trying to voice my concerns about your email.
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thebluebox0



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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:55 pm

Those examples are based on talking to people. My Rouge was a gift from an ally who quit after he was scammed. He was bobking74 in game. He bought 5 card packs a month on average.

My clanmates and I have investigated and warred scammers for months. In talking to the people who were scammed and checking back with them after a month, 12-13 out of every 20 have stopped playing and moved on to other games. A few may come back after 3-5 months, but most do not.

The examples included in the letter are made based on facts gathered by 20+ individus over 7 months of actively investigating and warring scammers in game.

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GoldoaWillNotMove
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:27 pm

I don't mean to be rude but in all honesty, It's not their job to care if someone gets scammed.
They only thing that will stop scammers is to be smart.
Either 1.) Stop albuming/lending you units or
2.) Album/lend with people who have collateral in equal or greater value and/or with allies who you DEEPLY trust.

Don't album your 500TE/600TE units with some random month old scrub with only 100 or something units in his album and is using a half leveled Abel as collat. Especially if their battle ratio is like 50 wins/1000+ losses. It's just common sense.
It's sad that this stuff happens but blaming SS and Mobage for their own naivete isn't going to solve anything.
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Colaleon
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:10 am

Albumming is pointless. Nobody ever opens their album and thinks "let's browse through all 736 of my albummed cards", do they? :S
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gambolice
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:13 am

besides , there's no reward for albuming so many cards, except for the "increase your card size by 5" skill...
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Vaati
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:30 am

... which is reached by getting most 1*/2*/3* cards from either training or premium tickets, and 4* from events if one plays wisely.

I know ppl want to collect those cards, or else Fantasica and real-life TCGs such as Magic, PKMN or Yu-Gi-Oh would lose half the fun. What troubles me in this game, which i warn that is out of this scamming context, is the following: Card collections are things that we the cards in this game are virtual and cannot be used outside the game, meaning that once the game's gone, all of the cards you tried to obtain are gone, while in Yu-Gi-Oh, i can still hold my 1st Edition Trishula in my hands, gaze at its artwork and loose a grin of satisfaction. Or even check my collection of the 150 first Pokemon and let my sister stay in awe while checking the cards.

And this is why i don't want to spend much in this game, as paying to win won't give tangible things for me to remember, only a thrill that will be lessened each time i will remember it. I want to play the game for fun, not for collection or victory with trophies that will be taken from you once the server's down.
What good is collecting cards if we can't keep them? And why scammers would do such as stealing cards if they would end up like this, bringing them only guilt in the end? (Unless that person is doing such for his twisted pleasure, which i won't go into detail here).

One could scan the favorite cards they won in the game and attempt to maintain its eternity, but it wouldn't be the same.


Now, if Moba would sent tangible cards of the 7* to their winners, that would be a different story.
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Tattycoram
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:49 am

I also think, personally, that albuming is silly. However, I respect that fact that there are people who want to do it. Although I don't personally understand the drive (as Colaleon smartly points out, there is no real benefit in the game to having a bunch of albumed cards that you can't sort or filter apart from * and type) and I like my album to reflect cards that I have owned, not borrowed, But I do have a couple of wonderful allies who love to album, and I have met a lot of great players in the game who like to do it.

But regardless of how you feel about albuming personally the truth is that:
a) some good players want to album
b) SCAMMERS USE IT SUCCESSFULLY AS A TACTIC TO STEAL CARDS

So why not request a "fix" for it? Seems to me, no harm to suggest this.

Cliffbiram is right to point out that there are also a lot of other wonderful "causes" that we could rally around, but this is not an either-or scenario. We can support this good idea and also lobby for other good ideas too. I look forward to participating in and supporting other coordinated efforts that others here would like to put forth, but while waiting for the "perfect" idea I will support this good idea in the meantime. I hope you will join me. Very Happy 

I love the idea of doing this on one day to show that there is a level of coordination among committed players. This Friday we can copy and paste the letter, but if there is something you don't like about the letter I suggest just adjust the wording to your own liking. I think this community has more power than we give ourselves credit!

And to Cam's point, it doesn't feel to me like we are telling them how to run their business. We are just expressing a concern from the player base to get their attention around this. Scamming DOES hurt the game and it isn't rude for us to point this out.

We saw in the last event proof that the ACTIVE player base is actually quite small. If I had seen one of the "scammer alert" notices when I was new, honestly I probably wouldn't have stuck around. And like the OP, I also know personally of at least one paying player who quit the game due to scamming, and another who considered it seriously. This has got to be impacting the player base. And anything that impacts the number of players overall is very likely impacting $

A final thought: Yes, getting scammed from an album lend is partially the victim's own fault, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread, and it's good to spread the word not to album without proper collateral, etc. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't also suggest that the game look into closing loopholes that allow scammers to take advantage of those people.

So what do you all think? Willing to give this a try?
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chaosbladeuk
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:04 am

I think your cause is noble however I believe that this will never be resolved.

The only way anyone can be scammed is via albuming, lending cards or using a level breaking service. The trade function does not support any of these features and if you CHOOSE to use the trade function outside of its intended purpose then you do so with the full risk. You cannot propose SS to stop scamming when the risk in albuming etc is clearly pointed out to you.

There are also no benefits to albuming, so why bother in the first place? If no one ever albumed then we clearly would not be having this discussion.

TL:DR - read the notice on or the announcements

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Yuan
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:52 am

The only people who can stop dishonest players are the rest of the players ourselves.

If you trade away your card and don't get it back that's your own fault. You knew the risk and accepted it.

There is really nothing Mobage can do about this so be sure to exercise caution when trading.
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Dmhlucky
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:44 am

Here is my 2 cents on this. Bear in mind i am a bit biased since this just recently happened to me.
 
The reason i have the drive to do something about this is because since i was scammed, we have uncovered a Scamming guild, whose sole function is to scam players and sell the cards for real money.
 
So no, tradeing is not against ToS, albuming has no point, but they clearly say that selling cards for real Money Will result in a perma Ban.
 
I emailed Mobage, Silicon Studios and Fanta support with all of the information i gathered. Their response to everything was " we can't do anything" so they are Activly Not supporting their own rules and regulations.
 
This is my issue, since we can't do anything about the trades, because, yes, it is partially the scammers fault, and partially the person getting scammed's fault. But that the company will not do anything when they are given direct facts about people selling the cards for real money.
 

And after rereading i came up with a functional suggestion for Albuming, which will not hinder anything.

Right now, you have to physically be in posession ot the card to have credit for albuming it. Why not have an Albm trade option. It would be similar to trade, except that instead of actually tradeing the card, you would just view it and get cradit for it. That way, no actual trade takes place, and those who want to album can do so freely.

They wanted some form of albuming to happen since they have XXX/600 cards listed (and lets be honest, for completionists and OCD people, this drives us nuts)
So why not implement a way to better support this.

I know their goal is to make money, and they want people to actually buy the cards to get them in the album, but seeing as so many scammers use it as a way to rip people off, i think its time they look into another option.

If they had an Album trade option, i would not hesitate to let people album cards, because there would be no risk of loosing anything.
I understand what everyone is saying, but the other side of the story, is a company that does not support that they promiise their customers. If this were a totally free game, it would be a different story, but people throw a lot of money at this game. Thats what this boils down to, people are effectivly stealing money from other players.
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chaosbladeuk
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:47 pm

Dmhlucky wrote:
Here is my 2 cents on this. Bear in mind i am a bit biased since this just recently happened to me.
 
The reason i have the drive to do something about this is because since i was scammed, we have uncovered a Scamming guild, whose sole function is to scam players and sell the cards for real money.
 
So no, tradeing is not against ToS, albuming has no point, but they clearly say that selling cards for real Money Will result in a perma Ban.
 
I emailed Mobage, Silicon Studios and Fanta support with all of the information i gathered. Their response to everything was " we can't do anything" so they are Activly Not supporting their own rules and regulations.
 
This is my issue, since we can't do anything about the trades, because, yes, it is partially the scammers fault, and partially the person getting scammed's fault. But that the company will not do anything when they are given direct facts about people selling the cards for real money.
 

And after rereading i came up with a functional suggestion for Albuming, which will not hinder anything.

Right now, you have to physically be in posession ot the card to have credit for albuming it. Why not have an Albm trade option. It would be similar to trade, except that instead of actually tradeing the card, you would just view it and get cradit for it. That way, no actual trade takes place, and those who want to album can do so freely.

They wanted some form of albuming to happen since they have XXX/600 cards listed (and lets be honest, for completionists and OCD people, this drives us nuts)
So why not implement a way to better support this.

I know their goal is to make money, and they want people to actually buy the cards to get them in the album, but seeing as so many scammers use it as a way to rip people off, i think its time they look into another option.

If they had an Album trade option, i would not hesitate to let people album cards, because there would be no risk of loosing anything.
I understand what everyone is saying, but the other side of the story, is a company that does not support that they promiise their customers. If this were a totally free game, it would be a different story, but people throw a lot of money at this game. Thats what this boils down to, people are effectivly stealing money from other players.
All TCG games all have an element of RMT. They are difficult to track and hard to enforce. I will reiterate what others have already pointed out - if you don't lend, album or using level breaking services there is absolutely no way you can be scammed. Follow those rules and these people who scam for a living with have nothing. It's very simple. Or if you're rich enough (and this is another point), pull some nice cards and trade the cards you want to complete your album. An expensive and really what SS want you to do. People want the cheap option and get stung for it.

This whole excuse of the OCD with having a complete album is just playing right into their hands.

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thebluebox0



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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:38 pm

I think the point is getting a little lost here. Real money trading is found in nearly every online and mobile game in existence. This isn't about real money trading though some scammers do sell stolen cards. All scammers do not rmt and all ppl who rmt do not scam.

The point is that some people do wish to complete their albums without having to spend endless hours trading this card for that card. Some ppl want to own every card at some point. People play the game differently and with different goals than others.

This is about getting Silicon Studios to do SOMETHING about scammers. A lending system that would allow safe albuming IN ADDITION TO the trade system now in place is one of many options they can explore. Albuming using the current trade system is very risky. A lending system would virtually eliminate album scams. That said, ambrosia scams would still happen. A centralized trading center is another great idea that can be tackled later.

My goal here is to get them to listen once. If it works, then we try again with a different measure (like centralized trading and creating tradable ambrosia). The goal is to make one change at a time. Since album scamming is the primary scam we see, then we start there.
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chaosbladeuk
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:20 am

thebluebox0 wrote:

The point is that some people do wish to complete their albums without having to spend endless hours trading this card for that card.   Some ppl want to own every card at some point.   People play the game differently and with different goals than others.  
Sorry I'm going to have to disagree with everything that you have said. How not to get scammed is to not album. Really it's that simple.

It's like me saying the only way to not get drunk is to not drink alcohol. Am I the only that thinks that albuming is a waste of time and the risk clearly outweighs any reward (clearly the only reward you're getting is satisfaction and nothing of benefit)

The point is that you guys want a shortcut to not having to spend money on the game to acquire every card. SS are all about making money; so in which case why would they implement something that would discourage people spending? In fact they could be really a pain and lock trading forever. Lots of their games don't have trading whatsoever so w/e.

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loniguseze
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:26 am

chaosbladeuk wrote:

Am I the only that thinks that albuming is a waste of time and the risk clearly outweighs any reward
No you are not the only one. Its total waste of time which brings ever far greater risk then buying from different sources and money.

The album is anyway a messy, ugly looking interface of collected cards. It needs an overhaul first imo... Then can the discussion continue.

Iam sorry for the scammed ppl, but I fail to comprehend how can someone trade a 7* to someone for albuming. Even if the person is a long time ally.
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liquidleks



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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:19 am

thebluebox0 wrote:
This is about getting Silicon Studios to do SOMETHING about scammers.  A lending system that would allow safe albuming IN ADDITION TO the trade system now in place is one of many options they can explore. Albuming using the current trade system is very risky.   A lending system would virtually eliminate album scams.   That said, ambrosia scams would still happen.   A centralized trading center is another great idea that can be tackled later.
A Lending System
Pros:
-Easier to fill your album

Cons:
-Potential for abuse during events.
-Eliminates one of the reasons people buy card packs.
-I think it would be detrimental to the second hand card trading market. (Less card movement since people are lending rather than selling. And all those nice LE cards you earned become almost worthless)

I think the cons outweigh the pros.


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Tattycoram
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:49 am

I believe that the impetus for this idea was to try to close off one the most popular tactics that scammers use. (In my personal opinion albuming is silly. But not everyone agrees and the reality is that scammers use the album excuse as a tactic to scam so I was willing to support it.) But it seems like there isn't a lot of momentum for the specific "lending system" idea here on the forum, and in fact some people have put forward reasons why they disagree with the specific idea of a lending system, and I respect that.

If our goal isn't to aid albumers but rather to cut down on scamming, maybe we should open another thread to discuss/brainstorm ideas that people would feel comfortable moving to Fanta to cut down on scamming (it hurts the game/ hurts all of us whether we fall victim to it personally or not), and see if there is an idea that does have a lot of support.

But I'm curious if there is enough interest, or is it more that the negative response to the OP was about apathy toward the issue of scamming itself?
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:35 pm

Eliminating scamming is a worthy goal, but we, the players, have to take steps to protect ourselves. Scammers wouldn't exist if the playerbase used the trading system purely to trade. It's sadly that simple. I think SS took the most important step. They put a huge warning out there telling people about the trading system and warning the playerbase to trade at their own risk.

education is the most important step in this fight. Never trade anything ANYTHING that you are not willing to stick with, if the other side decides not to trade back. It's just that simple.
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cliffbiram
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:38 pm

Because look at it another way, if ss started actively pursuing scamming claims, how many people going through trade remorese when a unit devalues will say they got scammed?  It's a no win situation for.SS.

If people want to stick bottles up their butts instead of using them for drinking water, the bottle manufacturer can't do much about it.  I know, extreme example, but if people don't use sometning for it's intended use, there will be consequences.,
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thebluebox0



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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:56 pm

The clan talked about many issues prior to launching this campaign. The idea of a lending system to combat album scammers was the most popular among them. A centralized trade center was second. Making ambrosia tradeable was third. So, we went in that direction.

If you are wondering where they are to support this idea, it seems any of them registered with the forums months ago but still can't lost. They can log in, but permission was never given to post. So, if a moderator would be so kind as to work through the backlog of registration requests, I think you will find this idea has more support than has been shown so far.
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thebluebox0



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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:31 pm

With regards to spending, I do not see an impact on sales from this idea. People who wish to rank will still buy card packs. If LE cards cannot be loaned until after they go off sale, those who want the series for their collections will still buy.

As for long term in game values, I think it will even out. Look at LE and event rewards. Immediately after event, values plummet. About 3 months later, they stabilize. By 6 months, they begin gaining value again. A lending system would allow ppl to album older LE and event rewards without having to buy them. That could potentially devalue the cards. That said, people who want to collect specific series would be able to focus on those sets. Every time someone completes a series like dream breakers or Christmas, those cards are effectively out of circulation. Thus, finding ppl willing to sell becomes more difficult. This would drive those values up. In the long term, the market would balance itself.

There are pros and cons to any changes in game play. The idea here is to get Silicon Studios to make it more difficult for scammers to operate in game with hopes that they will eventually realize the game isn't an easy target and move on. Getting scam reports on our walls up to 5 times a day gets tiresome. We want a peaceful and fun gaming experience. Getting rid of scammers would definitely aid in enhancing our experience.
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chaosbladeuk
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PostSubject: Re: FUSS AT FANTA FRIDAY (until they stop scammers)    Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:43 pm

thebluebox0 wrote:
With regards to spending, I do not see an impact on sales from this idea.   People who wish to rank will still buy card packs.   If LE cards cannot be loaned until after they go off sale, those who want the series for their collections will still buy.

As for long term in game values, I think it will even out.   Look at LE and event rewards.   Immediately after event, values plummet. About 3 months later, they stabilize.   By 6 months, they begin gaining value again.   A lending system would allow ppl to album older LE and event rewards without having to buy them.   That could potentially devalue the cards.   That said, people who want to collect specific series would be able to focus on those sets.   Every time someone completes a series like dream breakers or Christmas, those cards are effectively out of circulation.   Thus, finding ppl willing to sell becomes more difficult.   This would drive those values up. In the long term, the market would balance itself.

There are pros and cons to any changes in game play.  The idea here is to get Silicon Studios to make it more difficult for scammers to operate in game with hopes that they will eventually realize the game isn't an easy target and move on.  Getting scam reports on our walls up to 5 times a day gets tiresome.   We want a peaceful and fun gaming experience. Getting rid of scammers would definitely aid in enhancing our experience.
I will say my final piece. To get rid of scammers is not album or lend your cards to anyone. Scammers are smart because they play "this card" literally to target players. If you don't fall for it, they have nothing to work with it. I don't know how I can make it anymore simpler...

I feel like this is going in circles and may need this thread locked before the stupidity continues.


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