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 Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)

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orin0083



Join date : 2012-11-18
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:26 pm

BkWiz wrote:
GP had little to no bearing on match ups.

Personally I lean towards it has ZERO effect on match ups.  Match ups were strictly based on w/l ratio.  With the only accompanying rule being that higher win guilds have priority when matching against the same person than a lower w/l ratio guild.  Simply due to the fact that they probably have already faced all the other prior / similar ranked guilds.

Is it possible that when a guild search for downward match and have a few guilds with same win count to pick from, they pick the guild with highest accumulated total GP? or accumulated Overkill GP..?
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orin0083



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:32 pm

BkWiz wrote:
Top Guild Match Ups


Mate is it possible that you release the battle records of the top 6 guilds (just when did they lost and who did they lost to), to help us further understand this matching process??

We lost: 7th to Gods; 13th to War; 18th to Ice; 19 to Spender; 21st to Ranger; and then 23rd to Les.

Thanks!!
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Merivel



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:39 pm

BkWiz wrote:
Suggestions for Future Guild Events


28 Battles > 14 Battles
4 Time Slots per day > 2 Time Slots per day
Halve the requirement for each reward.
Make GP prizes GUILD GP prizes not individual

Considering how matches are set up, they would have spent = or greater than the current spending spree simply because people have less chances, and more people able to be on = greater competition.
If you've halved the number of battles, halving the reward requirements is a wash. Did you mean to make the reward table a bit easier?
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chaosbladeuk
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:06 am

orin0083 wrote:
BkWiz wrote:
Top Guild Match Ups

Mate is it possible that you release the battle records of the top 6 guilds (just when did they lost and who did they lost to), to help us further understand this matching process??

We lost: 7th to Gods; 13th to War; 18th to Ice; 19 to Spender; 21st to Ranger; and then 23rd to Les.

Thanks!!
From my experience:-

Ice Plumes - 27-1 - Lost to Les
Super Spenders - 26-2 - Lost to Les and to Ice
Les Neuf Dieux - 26-2 - Lost to Gods and Rangers
Power Rangers - 25-3, Lost to Spenders, Plumes and Death's Chosen
Death's Chosen - 25-3 - Lost to Les, Spenders and Ice
Gods of Olympus - 24-4 - Lost to Ice, Spenders, Death's and Rangers

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ggorrell77
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:27 am

chaosbladeuk wrote:
orin0083 wrote:
BkWiz wrote:
Top Guild Match Ups

Mate is it possible that you release the battle records of the top 6 guilds (just when did they lost and who did they lost to), to help us further understand this matching process??

We lost: 7th to Gods; 13th to War; 18th to Ice; 19 to Spender; 21st to Ranger; and then 23rd to Les.

Thanks!!
From my experience:-

Ice Plumes - 27-1 - Lost to Les
Super Spenders - 26-2 - Lost to Les and to Ice
Les Neuf Dieux - 26-2 - Lost to Gods and Rangers
Power Rangers - 25-3, Lost to Spenders, Plumes and Death's Chosen
Death's Chosen - 25-3 - Lost to Les, Spenders and Ice
Gods of Olympus - 24-4 - Lost to Ice, Spenders, Death's and Rangers
Interesting. Ideally if the best team had always won, we should have had 1 undefeated team, 1 team with 1 loss, 1 team with 2 losses, 1 with 3 losses etc. Until we got down to a clump of teams around rank 20 or so. Your experience shows that the top team did not always win, sometimes it was just how the teams matched up.

The problem with the event, is that after about the 13th battle, the top teams started becoming spoilers. Spoiling the records of teams below there rank. For every battle after the 13th, one more team became a spoiler. From what Tatty said, it sounds like the spoilers messed up everyone above about 18 wins (and at least some 18 win teams).

I'll bet if we could see the distribution of teams verses wins, we would see a fairly flat line from 28 to 19 wins, with a small bump around 18 wins, and a more normal distribution about 14 wins.
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Tattycoram
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:05 am

There is a thread that is trying to track teams and # of wins. Please add yours if you haven't yet:

http://www.fantasicaunofficial.com/t9167-the-fantasica-chronicles-aug-2013-hall-of-fame-work-in-progress-apply-within

ggorrel, in fact it felt like "top teams" (or rather, big spending teams) were spoilers for us even prior to 18 wins. I believe it was four of our losses prior had been tonic spamming teams going for Evas. I wonder if the event would have been more fun if there had been two options of tournaments and each guild choose to enter one.
* One with "no restrictions" like the event we had, where the rewards were tiered as they were, with the Eva and a 7* available.
* One with a "no tonic" restriction, or a restriction of a low number of tonics per battle (similar to the pots restriction) perhaps where there was no Eva or 7* available in this tournament, and the 6* would still be a high number of wins.

So, a tournament for the 1%ers and a tournament for the 99%ers if you will Very Happy

I think the company would still have sold pots and event units to the 99%ers tournament folks, and the big spenders would have still spent as much as they did (who knows, maybe even more with less easy wins for them) and it would have made for a happier experience for all, thus working to keep the overall player base large and healthy.
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Jim4good
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:31 pm

bump for relevance
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Tamachan84



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm

Does match up mechanic from first event still apply or has it changed to account for the gp rankings?
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xfalconhunterx
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:25 pm

BkWiz wrote:
Top Guild Match Ups

Les Neuf Dieux - http://youtu.be/JFvtTyKnIm0

Ice Plume - http://youtu.be/d9zd9B6WyS8
Okay - explain. 300+ tonics? And that was just for THESE battles. There's only one way I know of to get that. Do you basically have bottomless pockets for MobaCoin?
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Sichyras



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:11 pm

xfalconhunterx wrote:
BkWiz wrote:
Top Guild Match Ups

Les Neuf Dieux - http://youtu.be/JFvtTyKnIm0

Ice Plume - http://youtu.be/d9zd9B6WyS8
Okay - explain. 300+ tonics? And that was just for THESE battles. There's only one way I know of to get that. Do you basically have bottomless pockets for MobaCoin?
Welcome to Fantasica, where the top rankers blow at least the equivalent of your rent every week on this phone game.

Not-really-kidding aside, I agree with that idea for halving the event length and prize requirements. As a member of a 7* guild that has decent but not mega spender teams, the challenge is pretty fun/exhilarating for the first few days. The last three days or so really just make us point pinatas for the top ten list. Yes, we get it, you could triple our score even if we tried our best. Take your 7*s and let's move on to the next event.
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predator852
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:11 pm

As a person who is usually right (something that constantly gets on my mother & girlfriend's nerves) I can respect that when it comes to Fanta, BK is usually right.

I'm not saying he's ALWAYS right, but I'm saying if I have nothing but BK's word to go on, I'm more confident than I would be about using that information as if it were fact than normal because he has a running track record of being right.

Which is why I don't understand why others insist on questioning what he says. It's just not logical to be so skeptical of someone who has proved time and time again that he is at least exceptionally knowledgeable when it comes to these game mechanics.

That is all Smile

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abuqasar
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:42 am

Bumped for relevance. This is the best resource please do take a look it may answer many of your questions.
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chucksax



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:01 am

Okay, so to open up a topic, because my guild's strategy at this point is revolving on a mighty thin base - you think that GP has no bearing on matchups, basically? Last GW, I had a two-person guild, and we won 17 or 18 battles, keeping all of the victories within around 200-300K GP to keep our total points down. This lead to a lot of lopsided losses - if we were badly outnumbered / outspent, we'd drop out by about quarter after - but a lot of matchups against absent or 1-2 person guilds as time went on.

Hmmm... could it be not total GP, but the GP differential between your team and your opponents? Or, am I basing a small sample size (my guild last time) on a flawed premise?
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Kanata67
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:04 pm

fing awesome!!!!!!
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BkWiz
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:50 pm

I'll say it again, GP has little to zero bearing on match up.

I am almost 100% certain based on reported match ups that GP has zero effect on the match up system, but I cannot conclusively prove this hence me stating there is a tiny tiny chance it affects match ups.

To put this tiny chance into perspective, the atoms in my body could spontaneously decide to rearrange themselves into a hydrogen bomb causing me to explode...but considering billions of other people have not magically blown up everything around them without the help of outside chemicals I don't really see this as plausible...
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romanz7



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:57 pm

I want to contribute my experience as a defender here too for everyone.
Concerning with defense, I have been doing a heavy defender job for my guild(spacemonkeymafia) for the GA3 (ign-Rainzat)and this GA4(ign-radianced0) I always take top left position with full team def(my def team now is Baldo,Rein,Frene,Fang,celine and another reinhard,krene as spares)..One thing I am sure is that I am ALWAYS attacked first (100%) in every battles in both GA3 and GA4.Not just a high random chance. So most mid and low tier guilds just gave up easily after hiting me a few times and switch to cannons and that is when i switch my def to attack.
ATTACKS go to others in only 2 conditions as far as i found out
First: My defense is down
Second: When 2 ppl simultaneously(exactly same time)attacked me. First attack hit me and 2nd attack get past me.. i think that is what confusing ppl of front row top position not attacked everytime but being a random chance.
I think some of you have encountered the message 'OPPONENT ALREADY DEFEATED'or such while attacking. That is the same case when 2 or more ppl attacked at exactly same time and the defender is took down by the first attacker. others that attacked exactly at the same time are bounced off to attack again.
and also i found out that attacks that got past me always hit the mid center position. not just random but it seems random for 3rd hit taking position or so.
There is still something more interesting. When u enter a battle without deploying, u are always placed at top left postion first if unoccupied. Then placed at mid centre postion. what i wanted to say is that it may follows the pattern of hit takers. I have tried many times with my alt entering the battle without deploying and always ended up in that position. everyone can also try and feel free to correct me if i am wrong.
Hope it helps.
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daKGB



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:17 am

So I did a test this past guild
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daKGB



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:44 am

Joined big spender guild and joined casual guild and I can tell you with 100% certainty that the rank/gp does in fact play a part of the matchup algorithm.

Big spender guild - final rank 17 & 25w-10l (hello kitty mob): maxed out gp every battle - faced top 15 guilds around 9 times ....we gave up most of the top ten battles before they even began to save resources (drop off from rank 17 to rank 15 was something like 800mil gp so it puts the spend/burn into perspective). We had maybe 6-8 freebie battles where they were either weak turnouts or they gave up immediately. The rest were sufficiently tough battles - many of them giving up after 10-30 min

Casual guild - rank somewhere in the 600s 20win-15l: we played the don't run up the score game. We never ever faced a guild that would even be considered top 100 guild. We actually had a good record for the first half of guild war trailing my big spender guild by 1-2 wins, that is until we got to about halfway point (17-18 round), which by that point the big spender guild had already faced top ten guild 3-4 times.

The conclusion that my guild mates and I came to was this:
A) fanta is one evil mofo
B) algorithm is something to the effect of: win/loss ratio first and then gp/rank second
C) the latter has to be true because 1) how else can u explain the discrepancy between the matchups between two guilds when win/loss are relatively close (2) if fanta/mobage goes thru all the trouble to get people to spend then they would be remiss not to add some logic in algorithm to make big spenders face against other big spenders - heck if I ran the app that would be on the top of my roadmap of enhancements

Agree or disagree....this is from my experience and going forward will adjust strategy while still allowing people to reach 60mil individual gp reward and hitting the rank 50 reward - tough to do but doable considering some of the guildmates in the big spend guild hit well over 100mil gp....one thing is for certain going after 7* is almost impossible unless your entire guild is committed to spend large - ballpark guess: min300 tonics/pot each or spend min $400 each. Spoken with a few members from hentai & super rangers and they guesstimate $3k spend per guild member to put in perspective - hope this helps demystify/debunk Smile
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BkWiz
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:36 pm

daKGB wrote:
Joined big spender guild and joined casual guild and I can tell you with 100% certainty that the rank/gp does in fact play a part of the matchup algorithm.  

Big spender guild - final rank 17 & 25w-10l (hello kitty mob): maxed out gp every battle - faced top 15 guilds around 9 times ....we gave up most of the top ten battles before they even began to save resources (drop off from rank 17 to rank 15 was something like 800mil gp so it puts the spend/burn into perspective).  We had maybe 6-8 freebie battles where they were either weak turnouts or they gave up immediately.  The rest were sufficiently tough battles - many of them giving up after 10-30 min

Casual guild - rank somewhere in the 600s 20win-15l: we played the don't run up the score game.  We never ever faced a guild that would even be considered top 100  guild.   We actually had a good record for the first half of guild war trailing my big spender guild by 1-2 wins, that is until we got to about halfway point (17-18 round), which by that point the big spender guild had already faced top ten guild 3-4 times.

The conclusion that my guild mates and I came to was this:
A) fanta is one evil mofo
B) algorithm is something to the effect of: win/loss ratio first and then gp/rank second
C) the latter has to be true because 1) how else can u explain the discrepancy between the matchups between two guilds when win/loss are relatively close (2) if fanta/mobage goes thru all the trouble to get people to spend then they would be remiss not to add some logic in algorithm to make big spenders face against other big spenders - heck if I ran the app that would be on the top of my roadmap of enhancements

Agree or disagree....this is from my experience and going forward will adjust strategy while still allowing people to reach 60mil individual gp reward and hitting the rank 50 reward - tough to do but doable considering some of the guildmates in the big spend guild hit well over 100mil gp....one thing is for certain going after 7* is almost impossible unless your entire guild is committed to spend large - ballpark guess: min300 tonics/pot each or spend min $400 each.   Spoken with a few members from hentai & super rangers and they guesstimate $3k spend per guild member to put in perspective - hope this helps demystify/debunk Smile

...your score isn't from a big spender guild.

And your experiences correlate directly with my findings.  So I'm not sure how you are 'disproving' my findings and stating GP/Rank has any correlation with how match ups are.

The discrepancy is very easily explained.

Match ups follow a set formula.  It does not take into account 'difficulty' of a match up.

Since it uses a VERY simple formula, wins/losses, you will ALWAYS have match ups which make zero sense to a player who has knowledge of the teams  (Rank 1 @ 10-0 v. Rank 500 @ 10-0).

But since the system uses a very simple set of rules/formula, it makes perfect sense to the match up system. (Rank 1 has 10-0, rank 500 has 10-0, if they are the only 10-0 guilds left, then they match up against one another. If there are several guilds with the same win/loss ratio, the system randomly determines who matches against who, gp/rank has NO BEARING on this part either, otherwise the top guilds would IMMEDIATELY get matched against each other instead of randomly {Rank 1 v. Rank 2 for example instead of the usual Rank 1 v. Rank 50-90+})

If GP was a factor in the match up system, you would NEVER see those kind of disparate match ups.  However, due to the fact that we ALWAYS hear and see these types of match ups (
Even late in the event), we can conclude that GP/rank has little to no bearing on the match up formula.

What we ARE seeing however, is as the ranks get further and further from the 'start' point (1-0 v. 20-0) the system gets 'better' in a sense in that you are less likely to have those sort of disparate match ups...

Until you get to the downward phase and one of the other rules come into play : Higher 'rank' or w/l guilds get higher priority on match ups v. lower 'rank' / win/loss ratio guilds.  Add the one time match up rule to the mix, and you go from 'equal' match ups to less 'equal' match ups near the end of the guild event.

Hence, if you actually bothered to read my gigantic post WITH PICTURES, you would see that your experiences as a 'top spender guild' follow the formula/theory exactly.
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Anthalor



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:29 pm

Hello,
I'm a casual player and played last guild wars, from what I saw it is something like the elo rating system
Forget about your win/lose ratio and even more about your GP to understand the mechanics.

Basically: we all start with a same 'hidden' score, win/lose change this score by an amount depending on you opponent.  You gain a greater amount if you win a team with an higher score than yours.
Win-Ratio doesn't mean enough to correctly match same skill guild. Against who you won and who you lose yes.

i.e
case 1:
  - win vs rank 100  
  - lose vs rank 50
  - win vs rank 75
  - lose vs rank 55
  - win vs rank 60
My win ratio is 3W2L, but reading my report you know that my rank is around 50-75 so I should next battle match a team in this step.

Case 2:
   - lose vs rank 150
   - win vs rank 200
   - win vs rank 180
   - lose vs rank 170
   - win vs rank 175
Same win ratio 3W2L, but you want to categorize the guild as a 175-200 rank.

Winning against a strong player means that you are a strong player.

A lot of video/card/battle games and sports are using this kind of system.
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BkWiz
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:19 pm

Anthalor wrote:
Hello,
I'm a casual player and played last guild wars, from what I saw it is something like the elo rating system
Forget about your win/lose ratio and even more about your GP to understand the mechanics.

Basically: we all start with a same 'hidden' score, win/lose change this score by an amount depending on you opponent.  You gain a greater amount if you win a team with an higher score than yours.
Win-Ratio doesn't mean enough to correctly match same skill guild. Against who you won and who you lose yes.

i.e
case 1:
  - win vs rank 100  
  - lose vs rank 50
  - win vs rank 75
  - lose vs rank 55
  - win vs rank 60
My win ratio is 3W2L, but reading my report you know that my rank is around 50-75 so I should next battle match a team in this step.

Case 2:
   - lose vs rank 150
   - win vs rank 200
   - win vs rank 180
   - lose vs rank 170
   - win vs rank 175
Same win ratio 3W2L, but you want to categorize the guild as a 175-200 rank.

Winning against a strong player means that you are a strong player.

A lot of video/card/battle games and sports are using this kind of system.

There is no ELO system being used for this event.

I am 100% certain of this based on my experience from guild wars as a top player/member of a top guild in addition to winning multiple solo events with different formats...
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BkWiz
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:32 pm

Just to clarify things.  Silicon is NOT using what we would consider a ' true ' ELO system in order to match up people.  A true ELO system has varying values based on 'skill' level etc.  There is ZERO way for Fantasica/Silicon to judge 'skill' level in this game.

However, they are using some sort of hidden value to determine match ups.

Based on the experiences we have seen, that hidden value seems to be based on wins/losses.  Since as I stated in my post, the top rankers who are at the 'crest' of the graph experience a VERY simple format on their match ups.

They always match up against people who are at the same win level as them. Once that is no longer possible, they face people who are -1 loss, after that isn't possible, -2 losses, etc.

While yes they COULD be assigning some sort of 'value' for every win and subtracting some sort of 'value' for every loss, considering that this 'hidden value' is still tied to win and losses, is like arguing what shade of red an apple is when all you care about is whether it's an apple or banana you are holding.  Is it Fiji Red or Red Carpet Red?

In the end, it's still an apple, and it's still based directly off wins and losses.  Color/dressing = GP/Rank.  It's extraneous red herring information which does not in any way shape how the match up system matches you up.

The only reason people keep mistakenly assuming rank = match up = wins/losses is in almost every instance the top 5 guilds are the same ones who are spamming tonics non stop and thus have a similar win/loss ratio to one another.
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Anthalor



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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:29 am

BkWiz wrote:
In the end, it's still an apple, and it's still based directly off wins and losses.  Color/dressing = GP/Rank.  It's extraneous red herring information which does not in any way shape how the match up system matches you up.

We do agree that GP/RANK doesn't interfere with the match making system.

BkWiz wrote:
and it's still based directly off wins and losses
Yes, and its also based on opponents you met!
Is it import to know it? For example, I think it's a bad idea to try very very hard against a stronger team and win because you may jump to next rank step and matchup many stronger teams. you may also freelose against a very bad team to underrate yourself and hope to get 3/4 easy fights.
There are very few match for the system to get a approximation of the skill levels, so it has to be very volatile and re-rank guilds fast.


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Vaati
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PostSubject: Re: Guild Event Mechanics (Match Up Portion Complete!)   Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:13 am

Bumping this thread since players are asking about this topic several times.
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