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 Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]

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clocksprocket
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PostSubject: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:02 pm

Please see this thread for an updated list.


So as some of you may well be aware, forums member struesdell has done a lot of theorycrafting on existing cards and how they compare to each other. The tier list below is balanced around single-unit quests or events -- group events would have a different dynamic and thus value cards different.

THIS IS ALSO ALL OPINION. It's possible to use different values and achieve different ratings. This is not meant to be used as any kind of price/etc guide. The following tier lists also don't really account for actual demand/supply within the game. But without further ado, let's get started:

★★★★★★
Tier 1: Octavia, Nina, Minerva, Georgios, Monica
Tier 2: Anastasia, Nine-Tailed Fox, Petra, Cecilia, Vlad, Aggripina, Abel
Tier 3: Gloria, Succubus, Dorothea, Reinhard, Faith
Tier 4: Cornelia, Alexander, Beatrix, Charles

We have some really sweet units this event:
Minerva is pretty great: C speed, 175 range, good stats -- the 30pt cost is a downside, but she's essentially a slightly down-sized Octavia.
Georgios has amazing stats, but he's a bit hampered by having 130 range and D speed, as well as a high deploy cost. He still makes the highest tier though, and with stats like those, no surprise!
The Nine-Tailed Fox meanwhile is like a Petra with slightly higher air, slightly lower sea, and a higher deploy cost.

★★★★★
Tier 1: Sheryl, Joachim, Heidimarie, Rose, Edgar, Meg
Tier 2: Laura, Franziska, Victoria, Sophie, Bernhard, Erhard, Ignat, Stefan, Kiki, Seraphina, Camille
Tier 3: Sonia, Ploutia, Margarite, Lucrezia, Vivienne, Sarah, Julia
Tier 4: Caecilia, Hildegarde, Thrain, Elena, Emma, Adolph, Gerhard, Fiona

Laura straddles the line between tier 1 and tier 2. Her stats are pretty good, but she's a magic slow type unit -- we've all seen that before.
Sonia is interesting -- a C speed melee that can hit air, and has area attack. Her stats are not the most impressive, and she's probably going to be really common, so if we were doing this by rarity she'd lose points for that. That said, she's certainly a bit unique in her type/skill composition!

★★★★
Tier 1: Samantha, Yuriya, Scarlet, Chris, Georgine, Dhimitrios, Agnes, Livia, Blad, Anton
Tier 2: Gloria, Gleb, Miriam, Django, Partenope, Walpurgis, Tullia, Lieselotte, Felicia, Vilhelm, Mermaid, Paige, Achillea
Tier 3: Zenobia, Maia, Angela, Estlin, Sergei, Mylene, Luce Dorothy
Tier 4: Robert, Charl, Fredrike, Alfonso, Christof, Stray Cat, Biance, Avril, Alex, Helmut, Gunnel, Benedetta

I'll let struesdell's own words explain Benedetta: "Benedetta is the new bottom of the list. Attack Up (Men) is good. But her stats are worse than Alex's. In both cases I think Attack Up (Men) gets a little devalued right now just because all the best cards from the Gladiator, Military, Witch and Black Dragon Reincarnation sets are women."
Luce, meanwhile, finds herself right in-line with the last tower's recruited unit Dorothy. Magic & Poison -- higher air, slightly lower land.
Out of the three 4* dragonnewts, Tullia is the best. She's essentially an upgraded Lieselotte.
Stray Cat, on the other hand, isn't winning any prizes. No air attack, and the only thing she has sort of going for her is the S-speed.

★★★
Tier 1: Hans, Prudence, Piper, Maxim, Harvine, Wolf, Fernando, Simon
Tier 2: Heinz, Geronimo, Hector, Harpy, Carl, Sabrina, Phoebe, Elvira, Kinderik, Katherine, Marlow, Albert
Tier 3: Auguste, Julian, Niel, Leevi, Matvei, Gustav
Tier 4: Evert, Julietta, Johann, Percival, Theresa

Nothing new to say here. Struesdell about the new witches: "Prudence and Piper are great at this level, while Sabrina and Pheobe land squarely in Tier 2."

★★
Tier 1: Kirill, Alicia, Jane, Pernilla, Iwan, Willie
Tier 2: Adelaide, Damien, Elmer, Anna, Kyra, Bjorn
Tier 3: Orlando, Yakov, Enrique, Igor, Dominic, Solveig
Tier 4: Veronica, Claudio


Tier 1: William
Tier 2: Nils, Kevin, Gordon, Ada, Emily
Tier 3: Ian, Miranda, Markku, Clair, Badouin, Dain
Tier 4: Dennis, Jonathan, Carol, Natalie


Last edited by clocksprocket on Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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King-Shawe
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:28 am

Thanks Clocks and Struesdell - these lists were actually very helpful to me starting out and I'm sure the community appreciates them. Some of us will likely never see the back of some of these cards - so having a summary of where they stand relative to other cards is helpful when shopping around/trading/allying/etc.

My thoughts on Benedetta:
I'd agree with the point that boosters are currently under-rated and under-used - I think they will offer a level of depth to this game for certain events where they will become almost a staple card for certain play styles. Some people have done the math in other threads showing the stacking effect between a booster and the archangel skill. I won't repeat that here, just say that it's very very effective on the larger units.

The problem with boosters like Benedetta is that there are not a wide variety of male cards easily available for her to boost, making her almost seem useless. However, between her and Alex if you're making a choice I'd actually advise for Benedetta. The minor stat differences between the two are very marginal and at the end of the day a sucky stat compared to another sucky stat is still a sucky stat. These are backline units that are probably not going to be doing much if any damage in the first place.

However, Benedetta has 10 unit cost where Alex has 15. This seems small but when you consider some of the best male units in the game cost 30 this frees up more space for better males. If you consider the VC event for example, where there was a strict cap of 100 per team - this extra 5 energy difference can be the difference between using Vlad or not.

Just something to consider - I hate to see boosters picked apart as "useless" in other threads - and even more I hate to see Benedetta considered to be one of the worst units in the game.
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Curasa
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:23 am

King-Shawe wrote:
Thanks Clocks and Struesdell - these lists were actually very helpful to me starting out and I'm sure the community appreciates them. Some of us will likely never see the back of some of these cards - so having a summary of where they stand relative to other cards is helpful when shopping around/trading/allying/etc.

My thoughts on Benedetta:
I'd agree with the point that boosters are currently under-rated and under-used - I think they will offer a level of depth to this game for certain events where they will become almost a staple card for certain play styles. Some people have done the math in other threads showing the stacking effect between a booster and the archangel skill. I won't repeat that here, just say that it's very very effective on the larger units.

The problem with boosters like Benedetta is that there are not a wide variety of male cards easily available for her to boost, making her almost seem useless. However, between her and Alex if you're making a choice I'd actually advise for Benedetta. The minor stat differences between the two are very marginal and at the end of the day a sucky stat compared to another sucky stat is still a sucky stat. These are backline units that are probably not going to be doing much if any damage in the first place.

However, Benedetta has 10 unit cost where Alex has 15. This seems small but when you consider some of the best male units in the game cost 30 this frees up more space for better males. If you consider the VC event for example, where there was a strict cap of 100 per team - this extra 5 energy difference can be the difference between using Vlad or not.

Just something to consider - I hate to see boosters picked apart as "useless" in other threads - and even more I hate to see Benedetta considered to be one of the worst units in the game.


Wish they'd come out with a half-way cool looking male unit with boost for females. Even if it is another level 2 card; I don't care.
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King-Shawe
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:59 am

Curasa wrote:

Wish they'd come out with a half-way cool looking male unit with boost for females. Even if it is another level 2 card; I don't care.

A "Boost Dragonspawn" would have been cute on Benedetta instead of Boost Male.
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Valhades
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:11 am

Struesdell needs to stop basing his "tiers" around his numbers and instead rank them against other units of the same type.


For instance, why are there three missile units in his top 6* tier? Especially Minerva, who sucks. Why is she considered better than Vlad, who is hands-down the best anti-ground unit in the game even to date.

Generally, Octavia < Nina < Minerva, which is a good starting point for high, middle and low tiers. Cost is irrelevant and should never be used in usefulness evaluations. Not every event uses cost and the ones that do, there are a completely different set of tiers, such as Petra being more useful in Monica. There is not enough emphasis placed on high average stats and stats versus units of the same type.

An easy way to figure things out is sort all units by highest average stats, divide them between their respective types (Melee, Ranged, Sea), then account for any unusually high stats -- such as Vlad or Cornelia's ground attack. AOE units should be judged separately because their stats are lowered to account for the fact they will be hitting multiple targets -- All of them should not be sitting in the bottom tier.

The most important thing to note is that tiers should not be static. When a better unit comes along, they bump weaker units down.
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Curasa
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:15 am

Valhades wrote:
Struesdell needs to stop basing his "tiers" around his numbers and instead rank them against other units of the same type.


For instance, why are there three missile units in his top 6* tier? Especially Minerva, who sucks. Why is she considered better than Vlad, who is hands-down the best anti-ground unit in the game even to date.

Generally, Octavia < Nina < Minerva, which is a good starting point for high, middle and low tiers. Cost is irrelevant and should never be used in usefulness evaluations. Not every event uses cost and the ones that do, there are a completely different set of tiers, such as Petra being more useful in Monica. There is not enough emphasis placed on high average stats and stats versus units of the same type.

An easy way to figure things out is sort all units by highest average stats, divide them between their respective types (Melee, Ranged, Sea), then account for any unusually high stats -- such as Vlad or Cornelia's ground attack. AOE units should be judged separately because their stats are lowered to account for the fact they will be hitting multiple targets -- All of them should not be sitting in the bottom tier.

The most important thing to note is that tiers should not be static. When a better unit comes along, they bump weaker units down.


I pretty much agree. Sad part is, there are a lot of people who thump this proverbial Bible during trades.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:17 am

I suppose I could make a 4* and below tier list. I have access to average stats and know how ASPD works, and niche roles.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:24 am

i think that octavia & nina are a wash in terms of stats... however, i agree that minerva should pretty much never be converted lol..

only reason why i say this however, is that i still maintain that cost has importance not only in events but also in battling
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:36 am

Well, I'm sure you've all noticed I'm not struesdell. You can attack his theorycrafting all you like, but he actually put effort into making these tier lists. I agree that there are many, many different ways to rank things, especially in terms of usefulness, and that these rankings will change each event (in colosseum deploy points were important, and that was when he started these lists -- in a tower event, not so much). As I mentioned in the disclaimer, these are just based on best single-unit / quest damage. If you think there's different ways to tier, then yeah, go ahead and post them! It's good to compare. If you have a good argument for why a unit should be weighted differently/bumped up/bumped down (typically a context argument -- this unit really goes great in [this situation]) then obviously that's a good discussion point as well.

That said, it's not too difficult to look at missile/magic/melee units and see where they land.

Missile 6*s: Oktavia, Nina, Minerva, Anastasia, Abel, Alexander
Melee 6*s: Georgios, Vlad, Cecilia, Agrippina, Reinhard, Charles
Magic 6*s: Monica, 9-tailed Fox, Petra, PK Gloria, Succubus, Dorothea, Faith, Cornelia, Beatrix

If we're ranking based on how good they are within each type, Oktavia and Nina still win for Missile, with Minerva being a middle-tier missile (she is, after all, a mini-Oktavia) and the rest falling quite a bit behind.

Georgios wins with stats hands-down for melee, and Vlad is high-tier there because of his ridiculous land attack.

Magic-wise, Monica also wins hands-down. 9-Tailed Fox and Petra are closely tied stats-wise and are right after her -- the rest also fall behind.

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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:35 am

Natalie


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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:47 am

Since my highest cards are 5*, I'll comment about that.

Edgar needs to be bump down to Tier 2 or Laura moved up to Tier 1.
Laura's total attack is 101k, Edgar 106k. 5k difference
Laura's unit cost is 15, while Edgar is 20.

I'd say they're pretty even.


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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:51 am

They are indeed pretty even. Laura straddles tier 1 -- could consider her that, if Edgar is also a tier 1.

However, Edgar gets a bonus for turning into "C" speed with max atk speed boost when set as leader.

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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:23 pm

Everyone might already know this but the same speed ranking doesn't mean their equal. There are numbers behind the letters.

For example,
C is between "31-40" -- D is between "21-30"

Edgar might naturally be 28 and with speed boast +10%, he goes up to 31=C.
Laura might be a 25+10% = 28 = still a D.
Doesn't mean Laura didn't get faster though.

I agree Edgar is overall better than Laura in terms of speed and attack, but too close to be different tiers.
I don't know how the "cost of deployment" is factored into this system but I would love to have another cost:15 unit in my arsenal. The 5 point difference might mean you can deploy 5 units instead of 4 during a VC-like event.

It helps people trading Laura for other Tier 1 to know they're equal and not require Laura + another 5* for Edgar/Joa/etc.

NOTE: I do not have a Laura, I traded her for a max Erhard the fist day after recruitment failed Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:53 pm

Well, this tier list isn't meant to be some kind of pricing guideline. I already mentioned she straddles the line -- you can consider her virtually identical. If people want more for a Laura or Edgar, that's up to them.

e: the only other thing I will note -- despite Edgar having "only" 5k extra stats, they're more concentrated in, I think, land attack, which is weighed a lot more than sea attack (since you rarely need to use sea, but land is used the most frequently)
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:56 am

Is there an explanation of what characteristics split each tier within a star category? For example Rose in tier 1 vs Sera in tier 2. I can only deduce that the stat difference comes into play but a short explanation would be pretty sweet.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:01 am

clocksprocket wrote:


★★★★★
Tier 1: Sheryl, Joachim, Heidimarie, Rose, Edgar, Meg
Tier 2: Laura, Franziska, Victoria, Sophie, Bernhard, Erhard, Ignat, Stefan, Kiki, Seraphina, Camille
Tier 3: Sonia, Ploutia, Margarite, Lucrezia, Vivienne, Sarah, Julia
Tier 4: Caecilia, Hildegarde, Thrain, Elena, Emma, Adolph, Gerhard, Fiona

Laura straddles the line between tier 1 and tier 2. Her stats are pretty good, but she's a magic slow type unit -- we've all seen that before.
Sonia is interesting -- a C speed melee that can hit air, and has area attack. Her stats are not the most impressive, and she's probably going to be really common, so if we were doing this by rarity she'd lose points for that. That said, she's certainly a bit unique in her type/skill composition!

Caecilia shouldn't be the lowest tier, she should be in tier 2 or 3. If you get a cae,

You will know how fast she attack in magic unit and she do like in C attack speed actually.People may only consider her poor stats in air attack and sea attack,so putting her in lowest tier.

For the land attack, she is the best 5* magic unit with slow skill.I started to understand why Fantasica put her in higher rank reward after I got her, while Plau can be replaced by erhard.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:19 am

Pandy wrote:
Is there an explanation of what characteristics split each tier within a star category? For example Rose in tier 1 vs Sera in tier 2. I can only deduce that the stat difference comes into play but a short explanation would be pretty sweet.
Struesdell's ratings take a whole lot of things in to play, and weighs them all differently, which then comes up with a total rating (which can be personally adjusted) and from there, you look at the various ratings and draw tier lines.

In terms of Rose and Seraphina -- Rose has much higher stats in air attack (38k as opposed to 24k) which makes a big difference in terms of usefullness.

timlai1209 wrote:

Caecilia shouldn't be the lowest tier, she should be in tier 2 or 3. If you get a cae,

You will know how fast she attack in magic unit and she do like in C attack speed actually.People may only consider her poor stats in air attack and sea attack,so putting her in lowest tier.

For the land attack, she is the best 5* magic unit with slow skill.I started to understand why Fantasica put her in higher rank reward after I got her, while Plau can be replaced by erhard.
I disagree with both of these.

Caecilia is a low tier for a reason. First, so we're on the same page:

Magic / D / 150 / Slow Lv 5 / Deploy Cost 25
Max Stats: 38900/13200/18500

Compare her to Erhard (magic/knockback, who has higher stats pretty much everywhere) or Edgar (missile/slow, also with ridiculously high stats).

But if you want to compare her to magic/slow, a new card wins that one -- Laura. Check out Laura's stats:
Magic / D / 150 / Slow Lv 5 / Deploy Cost 15
Max stats: 33700/35300/32100
or even Stefan, who is also
Magic / D / 150 / Slow Lv 5 / Deploy Cost 15
Max stats: 31150/33750/30075

Yeah, both of those have lower land attack than Caecilia, you are right about that, but it's not by that much. And the worst thing about Caecilia is she is useless for everything else. And while her attack seems quick, she's still in the D-speed range, to be compared with other D-speeds. Even a C-attack most likely wouldn't save the fact that she has poor stats otherwsie.

Now, trust me, I get why it's important to sometimes just isolate stats. Vlad is amazing in land attack and I agree that he should definitely be placed highly just because he's so useful there -- but Caecilia? Her land attack isn't like 50k higher than everyone else's -- at most, 5k.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:52 pm

Let's go to the videotape (and good question, as I was wondering about Rose myself):

Rose:
Missile / 150 / D / no skill
36250 / 38800 / 35240

Serafina:
Missile / 150 / C / no skill
32100 / 23900 / 38700

The two cards are structurally similar; C speed is a slight advantage over D but not insurmountable. However, look at the stats; 4000 higher against ground targets and a whopping ~15,000 higher against air! That's a major damage gap that one speed class can't come close to overcoming.

Interesting how all of the 5* top tiers are missile units. Let's compare some others for fun:

Edgar:
Missile / 150 / D / Slow 5
38800 / 36250 / 31100

Pretty much Rose with Slow 5 tacked on, which is a big plus. One of my top 5*s overall.

Sheryl:
Missile / 175 / C / no skill
28500 / 51500 / 33700

Better range than most and Death to Flying Things air damage.

Joachim:
Missile / 175 / D / Knockback 5
38175 / 51500 / 25850

Now take Sheryl, go one class slower but add 10K ground damage and knockback. My favorite 5*.

Meg:
Missile / 175 / C / Poison 5
33750 / 15750 / 28050

The air damage is a little low, but decent fire rate, long range and Poison make up for it, and she's quite nasty against ground targets.

Heidemarie:
Missile / 175 / E / Knockback 5
61300 / 66400 / 41100

Everything about her is amazing except for that E speed.

And the newcomer:
Laura:
Magic / 150 / D / Slow 5
33700 / 35300 / 32100

As noted, not dissimilar to Edgar, and a step up from Slow 5s like Caecilia (gimped air attack), Marguerite (same) and Emma (lower attack overall). Similar to Stefan with a couple thousand attack added on, but not so much that I'd feel bad about owning either.

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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:45 pm

I'm curious if projectile speed is considered when comparing units. Because some units "bullet" are excruciatingly slow. Alexander, Hildegarde, and Helmut are three that I have noticed are slow to the point that it makes them less useful. The unit they are attacking is almost always dead before their projectile gets there.
And it there somewhere I can find information about projectile speeds?
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:09 pm

Wheatmidge wrote:
I'm curious if projectile speed is considered when comparing units. Because some units "bullet" are excruciatingly slow. Alexander, Hildegarde, and Helmut are three that I have noticed are slow to the point that it makes them less useful. The unit they are attacking is almost always dead before their projectile gets there.
And it there somewhere I can find information about projectile speeds?

Projectile speed comes from experience of deploying the units. This is the main reason why I generally rank magic lower.

My main issue is that (I think) an attack cooldown doesn't start until the last hit registers. Meaning, for a ranged or a magic unit to wind down the cooldown for their next attack, their projectile has to hit first.

Ranged projectile is fast -- much faster than magic. Magic projectile is slow, and this is pretty evident if you put a magic and a ranged unit side by side. The ranged will always hit first, and where applicable, the ranged unit will also start the next attack sooner than the magic unit because the magic projectile is still mid-flight compared to ranged. If the ranged user and magic user have the same attack speed, a ranged user will always land more attacks (unless they both kill everything with one hit).

These makes a noticable difference when fighting a tower boss. Often times the magic projectile is still mid-flight when the boss makes the killing blow. This could mean the difference of needing 5 attempts instead of 4 when killing a boss.


The only time magic and ranged have the same projectile speed is with AE units (except for Kiki, who is pretty awesome compared to other AE units). Magic and ranged units like Hilde and Alex, Cornelia have the same projectile speed regardless of being ranged or magic. Kiki is the exception to this. Her ranged projectile speed is very fast and makes her attack much faster compared to her other AE counterparts.

Don't take my word for it though, you should experiment for yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:24 pm

jdelmundo wrote:
Wheatmidge wrote:
I'm curious if projectile speed is considered when comparing units. Because some units "bullet" are excruciatingly slow. Alexander, Hildegarde, and Helmut are three that I have noticed are slow to the point that it makes them less useful. The unit they are attacking is almost always dead before their projectile gets there.
And it there somewhere I can find information about projectile speeds?

Projectile speed comes from experience of deploying the units. This is the main reason why I generally rank magic lower.

My main issue is that (I think) an attack cooldown doesn't start until the last hit registers. Meaning, for a ranged or a magic unit to wind down the cooldown for their next attack, their projectile has to hit first.

Ranged projectile is fast -- much faster than magic. Magic projectile is slow, and this is pretty evident if you put a magic and a ranged unit side by side. The ranged will always hit first, and where applicable, the ranged unit will also start the next attack sooner than the magic unit because the magic projectile is still mid-flight compared to ranged. If the ranged user and magic user have the same attack speed, a ranged user will always land more attacks (unless they both kill everything with one hit).

These makes a noticable difference when fighting a tower boss. Often times the magic projectile is still mid-flight when the boss makes the killing blow. This could mean the difference of needing 5 attempts instead of 4 when killing a boss.


The only time magic and ranged have the same projectile speed is with AE units (except for Kiki, who is pretty awesome compared to other AE units). Magic and ranged units like Hilde and Alex, Cornelia have the same projectile speed regardless of being ranged or magic. Kiki is the exception to this. Her ranged projectile speed is very fast and makes her attack much faster compared to her other AE counterparts.

Don't take my word for it though, you should experiment for yourself.

This is correct. Attack does not seem to reset until after the missile hits it's target. I am not 100% positive of this, but it seems to be so. So missile speed is a huge factor on how fast a unit attacks.

The only correction I would make to this is, there are 'ranks' to the Alphabet speed ranks. Factoring out missile speed, some units at the same letter grade just attack faster than others. For example, if we use values of 300-350 for A speed ranking, which is larger/faster, the 300 or 350 number? Both are sitll A rank irregardless.

The actual sprite animation speed 'could' account for this, but it's hard to differentiate between internal speed levels v. animation speed at that point. And considering that some units can go from C to B with speed demon, it makes more sense to assume it is actual attack speed rather than sprite animation speed which is the defining factor.
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clocksprocket
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Join date : 2012-08-17
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:37 pm

I actually bothered struesdell about magic vs. missile attack when he was first looking into all these details.

He tested them. He put a same-speed missile and magic unit (both D, obviously) on two different sides of a road, which spewed, I believe, two identical monsters (could have been 24-6, don't remember). They hit the units at the same exact time.

Now, did they continue hitting at the same rate? I don't remember, but I imagine struesdell tested that quite well. I was pretty miffed to learn that magic and missile actually have a same fire rate, but he claimed that magic appeared slower because of its magic "landing" animation, whereas you didn't really see the same thing with missiles.

Of course, he could be wrong -- maybe their firing after that makes a difference. However, I would urge people to conduct their own tests (possibly on an account without any speed boost increase if possible, though that may not be necessary). The other suggestion is the one that's been brought up -- magic/missile differences could also be simple internal speed attack differences -- there is variation of speed even within speed-ranks (which is why D-Edgar can go up to C with skills, but many other D-speeds can't).
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jdelmundo



Join date : 2012-08-24
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:46 pm

clocksprocket wrote:
I actually bothered struesdell about magic vs. missile attack when he was first looking into all these details.

He tested them. He put a same-speed missile and magic unit (both D, obviously) on two different sides of a road, which spewed, I believe, two identical monsters (could have been 24-6, don't remember). They hit the units at the same exact time.

Now, did they continue hitting at the same rate? I don't remember, but I imagine struesdell tested that quite well. I was pretty miffed to learn that magic and missile actually have a same fire rate, but he claimed that magic appeared slower because of its magic "landing" animation, whereas you didn't really see the same thing with missiles.

Of course, he could be wrong -- maybe their firing after that makes a difference. However, I would urge people to conduct their own tests (possibly on an account without any speed boost increase if possible, though that may not be necessary). The other suggestion is the one that's been brought up -- magic/missile differences could also be simple internal speed attack differences -- there is variation of speed even within speed-ranks (which is why D-Edgar can go up to C with skills, but many other D-speeds can't).

I know for certain ranged hits first. This is obvious at 25-6. Put a low level ranged and a high level magic unit. The lower damage value will animate first.

As with what BkWiz says, I believe there are two tiers of speed -- possibly more. This is evident when speed rank changes when you switch units as leaders.


As for testing, you don't need a new account, just make sure your test subjects are not your leader.
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bigpig506
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:23 pm

Charles rated bottom 6*? agreed his stats for a 6* are low as hell, but hes 10 unit cost, S speed. situationally better than alex/beatrix
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timlai1209
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [10/4/12]   Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:57 pm

clocksprocket wrote:

I disagree with both of these.

Caecilia is a low tier for a reason. First, so we're on the same page:

Magic / D / 150 / Slow Lv 5 / Deploy Cost 25
Max Stats: 38900/13200/18500

Compare her to Erhard (magic/knockback, who has higher stats pretty much everywhere) or Edgar (missile/slow, also with ridiculously high stats).

But if you want to compare her to magic/slow, a new card wins that one -- Laura. Check out Laura's stats:
Magic / D / 150 / Slow Lv 5 / Deploy Cost 15
Max stats: 33700/35300/32100
or even Stefan, who is also
Magic / D / 150 / Slow Lv 5 / Deploy Cost 15
Max stats: 31150/33750/30075

Yeah, both of those have lower land attack than Caecilia, you are right about that, but it's not by that much. And the worst thing about Caecilia is she is useless for everything else. And while her attack seems quick, she's still in the D-speed range, to be compared with other D-speeds. Even a C-attack most likely wouldn't save the fact that she has poor stats otherwsie.

Now, trust me, I get why it's important to sometimes just isolate stats. Vlad is amazing in land attack and I agree that he should definitely be placed highly just because he's so useful there -- but Caecilia? Her land attack isn't like 50k higher than everyone else's -- at most, 5k.

At least cae should be in tier 3, if you have taken a look on 5* land monster, most of their weakness is land magic attack. cae is still useful in case. Besides, you may find people who are selling cae in pretty lower amount TE while other magic unit worths like 200-300 TEs, as most of them noticed cae is useless in their view.
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