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 A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)

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Timed
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PostSubject: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:30 am

Since i have seen so many people ask for a card rank guide i though i would make one

Now I rank units by the formula (Total Damage / Deployment Cost) X (1 + 0.4 X Speed) where E = 1 and S = 5
I get the 0.4 from the the fact Reinhard does 80% of Vlads ground damage over the same time

NOTE THIS IS NOT A PRICE GUIDE
ALSO IT DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT UNIT ABILITIES OR RANGE
so this highly under rates Area Attack and High Range

6*
S Rank (19000+)
Charles, Nina, Isis, Nanaca

A Rank (17000 - 19000)
Aksana, Ludmila, Fenrir, Valafar, Rain, Chandelle, Grey

B Rank (15000 - 17000)
Isabel, Eluit, Dana, Manfred, Anastasia, Dana(Reprint), Ellan, Cecilia, Vampiress, Lu Bu, Cuniculus, Alvida

C Rank (13000 - 15000)
Eurydike, Ridill, Minotaur, Diana, Dolce, Armure, Paris, Aragon(Reprint), Beatrix, Rurijisa, Delfina, Gideon, Hippolyte, Oktavia, Aragon, Gloria(Princess), Arcadia, Bajardo, Georgios, VDay Diana, Sagrado, Marybell,

D Rank (11000 - 13000)
X'mas Reamy, Magnus, Agrippina, Ombre, Evurifu, Melodia, Saki, Monica, Dorothea, Reve, Abel, Loki, Belethi, Matahari

E Rank (9000 - 11000)
Harthi, Adamas, X'mas Fancios, Francois, Debbie, Minerva, Alsiel, Marjoram, Ethelred, Juana, Medicis, Petra, Lys, Nine Tailed Fox, Chiara, Vine, Verlegen, Mitra, Zhao Yun, Reinhard, Vlad, Seth, Claudette, Monica(Halloween), Succubus, Tania, Tina

F Rank(0 - 9000)
Solar, Nunnally, Faith, Rouge, Cornelia, Alexander

Raw Data
Spoiler:
 



Last edited by Timed on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:45 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Timed
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:30 am

5*

Raw Data(might be a few mistakes as I did it all on a calculator)

Spoiler:
 


Last edited by Timed on Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Timed
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:31 am

Reserved for 4*
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Schdawn
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:55 am

Something is seriously wrong with this chart when Aragon (both versions) are in C Rank.
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Timed
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:26 am

Schdawn wrote:
Something is seriously wrong with this chart when Aragon (both versions) are in C Rank.

I worked out Aragon by

158800 / 30 * 2.6 = 13762

It's mainly her cost of 30 which puts her that low

I would gladly change my formula if you can give a reason too (IE does her speed become S with speed daemon? )


Last edited by Timed on Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:31 am

Timed wrote:
Schdawn wrote:
Something is seriously wrong with this chart when Aragon (both versions) are in C Rank.

I worked out Aragon by

158800 / 30 * 2.6 = 13762

It's mainly her cost of 30 which puts her that low

I would gladly change my formula if you can give a reason too
There are events that utilize cost, such as Arena Battle where units with high cost have high HP,
which Aragon and her 900k HP is an absolute beast.

Unit rank should be determined case by case, not by a one-fit-all formula
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Timed
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:49 am

Schdawn wrote:
Timed wrote:
Schdawn wrote:
Something is seriously wrong with this chart when Aragon (both versions) are in C Rank.

I worked out Aragon by

158800 / 30 * 2.6 = 13762

It's mainly her cost of 30 which puts her that low

I would gladly change my formula if you can give a reason too
There are events that utilize cost, such as Arena Battle where units with high cost have high HP,
which Aragon and her 900k HP is an absolute beast.

Unit rank should be determined case by case, not by a one-fit-all formula

yes she's a beast in battle arena but you would still only be able to use 4 of her.
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Happiemealz
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:56 am

Nonono. Can of worms. Cards are valued as highly as the individual feels it's worth.

Different units will excel in different events. Example being, Vlad will destroy in the all-melee BA.
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Schdawn
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:57 am

Timed wrote:
Schdawn wrote:
There are events that utilize cost, such as Arena Battle where units with high cost have high HP,
which Aragon and her 900k HP is an absolute beast.

Unit rank should be determined case by case, not by a one-fit-all formula

yes she's a beast in battle arena but you would still only be able to use 4 of her.
No, you only need 1 Aragon and another 30 cost 6☆ unit plus any other 5 units, because nobody is going to be able to burn through 1.8 million HP within 50 turns.
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pknott
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:28 am

This is pretty much a waste of time. It's not a unit value list. It's a really bad arena list. A really really bad arena list.
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KuroStar
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:37 am

its just based on formulas lol...

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What are you looking at? Razz

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Timed
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:07 am

sigh I just finished the 5* list but it looks like no one wants it :/
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:43 am

Timed wrote:
sigh I just finished the 5* list but it looks like no one wants it :/

well, try making it in more.. emm.. understanding way?

I dont really understand the formula but I feel some of the data rather... inappropriate I think
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pknott
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:03 am

Esofonic wrote:
Timed wrote:
sigh I just finished the 5* list but it looks like no one wants it :/

well, try making it in more.. emm.. understanding way?

I dont really understand the formula but I feel some of the data rather... inappropriate I think

I don't think he can. He ignored skills, which is problematic. And I doubt he could create a numerical value for them.

I didn't mean it was a waste of time for us. I meant he was wasting his time doing it. The numbers he has access to are not even all the numbers. Then there are factors beyond the numbers.
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karmacappa
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:13 am

What is the goal of this list? Keep in mind that battle arena, arena, bosses, and quests have very different priorities and valuations. One of the big reasons why tier lists fall apart is because they don't account for these differences. Which of these modes is your formula designed to illuminate? How can you improve the accuracy for a specific set of circumstances?
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:14 am

pknott wrote:
Esofonic wrote:
Timed wrote:
sigh I just finished the 5* list but it looks like no one wants it :/

well, try making it in more.. emm.. understanding way?

I dont really understand the formula but I feel some of the data rather... inappropriate I think

I don't think he can. He ignored skills, which is problematic. And I doubt he could create a numerical value for them.

I didn't mean it was a waste of time for us. I meant he was wasting his time doing it. The numbers he has access to are not even all the numbers. Then there are factors beyond the numbers.

I recall someone ever tried to make similar ranking thread way before but ended up umm.. not so good..

Each person preference will always become main factor why creating such kind of thread is difficult to begin with..

But still.. if someone can make quite a ranking thread with a well-thought formula, it would be wonderful.. (definitely not me though) Razz
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pknott
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:23 am

Esofonic wrote:
pknott wrote:
Esofonic wrote:
Timed wrote:
sigh I just finished the 5* list but it looks like no one wants it :/

well, try making it in more.. emm.. understanding way?

I dont really understand the formula but I feel some of the data rather... inappropriate I think

I don't think he can. He ignored skills, which is problematic. And I doubt he could create a numerical value for them.

I didn't mean it was a waste of time for us. I meant he was wasting his time doing it. The numbers he has access to are not even all the numbers. Then there are factors beyond the numbers.

I recall someone ever tried to make similar ranking thread way before but ended up umm.. not so good..

Each person preference will always become main factor why creating such kind of thread is difficult to begin with..

But still.. if someone can make quite a ranking thread with a well-thought formula, it would be wonderful.. (definitely not me though) Razz

There is no formula. There will never be a formula. Knockback and slow vary in effectiveness based on who it affects, not the unit that has the skill. The amount of each poison hit is determined by the unit who has the skill, but the number of ticks varies according to the other teams speed(or the affected unit in BA). You cannot quantify these things, because they're not even going to be the same fight to fight against the same team due to random procs.

And it's an arena ranking. DC is irrelevant in other event types.
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:53 pm

I'd be interested to see the 5* list...
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Timed
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:13 pm

What I am trying to do with this list is give a brief overview of the return on cost used on a unit to the damage it deals out, now I know there are 3 different types of damage and also value changes depending on the current event and situation.

however I realize this list is almost useless due to in most events and quests the amount of deploy cost they give us is way to big, thus there's almost no challenge in the biggest part of this game.

I mean the only place that's actually a proper challenge is attacking due to the limited deploy cost other then that there no real skill other then grinding or paying money.
Think of it this way have you ever been on your toes waiting for your cost to regenerate enough so you can deploy the last unit and win the level?

It's like the core of this game(the quests) is just ... missing or to easy.
This game would be 10X better if there was a hard mode where they half to third the deploy cost on each level or start your deploy at 0.
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Timed
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:24 pm

Esofonic wrote:
pknott wrote:
Esofonic wrote:
Timed wrote:
sigh I just finished the 5* list but it looks like no one wants it :/

well, try making it in more.. emm.. understanding way?

I dont really understand the formula but I feel some of the data rather... inappropriate I think

I don't think he can. He ignored skills, which is problematic. And I doubt he could create a numerical value for them.

I didn't mean it was a waste of time for us. I meant he was wasting his time doing it. The numbers he has access to are not even all the numbers. Then there are factors beyond the numbers.

I recall someone ever tried to make similar ranking thread way before but ended up umm.. not so good..

Each person preference will always become main factor why creating such kind of thread is difficult to begin with..

But still.. if someone can make quite a ranking thread with a well-thought formula, it would be wonderful.. (definitely not me though) Razz

Too me the biggest problem with ranking units will ALWAYS BE someone will complain that their favorite unit is ranked badly or not high enough. There's simply no way around this, someone will always come last :/
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pknott
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:40 pm

Timed wrote:


Too me the biggest problem with ranking units will ALWAYS BE someone will complain that their favorite unit is ranked badly or not high enough. There's simply no way around this, someone will always come last :/

The biggest problem is you cannot even make an iffy list without access to more data and processes than we have. Your rankings were arena as I said(DC means nothing outside of arena, either normal or battle), and they would have put things like Emperor Arcadia/Derufina/Akusana lower than Charles(because DC means little on the individual card. It is dependent on the other cards in the team). Even outside of arena, those three cards whip Charles up and down the street, buck naked.
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Timed
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:47 pm

I got the idea to use cost for this list because in the Japanese wiki all the card have a コストパフォーマンス or cost performance at the end which is basically (Total damage / deploy cost)
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Schdawn
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:23 pm

Timed wrote:
I got the idea to use cost for this list because in the Japanese wiki all the card have a コストパフォーマンス or cost performance at the end which is basically (Total damage / deploy cost)
To my knowledge, Cost Performance column was put there because of Arena...
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:22 pm

I dont like this guide much. Every unit has their own uses and ignoring their skill altogether just doesn't work. Even if units have high deploy costs doesn't mean they're bad.

I know for instance that Isis is bad in arena, way too slow to be effective, she just gets knocked to no where just because of her speed. Poison was casted when it was the start of my turn, which made her poison completely ineffective.

Skills are just too important to ignore. Only event that doesn't have skills involved is boss fights in training events and such. But still in that case, it's DPS thats important not Damage/Deploy Cost.

Honestly though, i cant really find a use for this guide >.<.
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Timed
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PostSubject: Re: A quick guide to unit rank (First attempt)   Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:41 am

I know of 1 more way to rank unit's but it'll take me a lot longer to make. also i still won't be able to factor in skills. :/

Due to there are about 90 6* , 130 5* and 180 4* this will take a while
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