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 4* feeders should be sold at level 38

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Colaleon
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PostSubject: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:45 am

Price calculations for units at different levels

Most of the times, we only see fresh or max units being offered on the market. This makes sense, because people are either trying to get rid of a fresh unit that they don't want to put any effort in, or they want to maximize the profit gained from selling it by maxing the unit before putting it on the market. We hardly ever see anyone level up a unit, stop halfway to maxing it and sell it at that level. I find myself questioning why that would be such a bad idea. The main problem would probably be that there are no good guidelines of how such a unit would be priced. That's where this topic comes in.

There are 2 factors to consider when pricing a leveled unit.
1) The person selling the card has put a lot of time into leveling the unit. Or in case he has enhanced the unit instead of questing: the person selling the card has put a lot of time and luna into gathering feeders and sacrificing them to level the unit. The seller would prefer to price the unit based on the amount of effort he invested in it.
2) The person buying the card is either interested in deploying the unit in quests/events or he's interested in sacrificing the unit as a feeder. In both cases, the level of the unit is all that matters. The buyer would prefer to price the unit based on the level of the unit.

We're going to be considering 4* cards in this topic, because although prices are never set in stone, the value of fresh common 4* units and the value of max common 4* units is fairly steady on the current market. We see fresh 4* units usually being sold at the price of 2 units for 1 TE (so the price of 1 card would be 0,5 TE), while max 4* units are usually being sold at 8 TE per card. The attack power of a unit increases linearly to the level of the unit (right?). The amount of experience gained from sacrificing the unit as a feeder also increases linearly to the level of the unit. This, using these values of fresh and max units as benchmarks, we can create a linear scale linking unit level to TE pricing:

PRICING BASED ON THE LEVEL OF THE UNIT

Spoiler:
 

Although the reasoning behind this pricing list seems flawless, it's clear to see that this list by itself would not serve as a good guideline to unit pricing. Imagine 2 offers: one seller is offering you two fresh 4* units for 1 TE; the other is offering you one 4* unit that has been enhanced to level 6 for 1 TE. Both offers are fair by the standards of this list, but yet it's obvious that the first offer is much better. You would buy the two fresh units, feed 6-7 fresh 1* units to each of them, and there you go: now you have two 4* units that have been enhanced to level 6 - instead of just the one that you would've gotten if you took the second offer. Enhancing them yourself is hardly any effort, because most players have more than 12-14 fresh 1* units in their unit list, waiting to be sacrificed.

Obviously, the effort required to level up a unit needs to be taken into account when determining its value. We know the amount of XP a unit needs to reach level 80, from this topic: Enhancement Calculator and formulas!. This post by kyaaya is particularly helpful:
Spoiler:
 

Using this formula, we can conclude that a fresh unit starts with 50 XP (leveling up to lvl 2 when he gains another 50 XP, bringing his total to 100 XP) and a lvl 80 unit has at least 191650 XP (having gained a total of 191600 XP since lvl 1). This total of 191600 XP can be used in a linear scale, linking a units total XP to TE pricing:

PRICING BASED ON THE EFFORT IT TAKES TO LEVEL UP THE UNIT

Spoiler:
 

Although this list would seem fair to a seller, it is again clear to see that by itself it would not serve as a good guideline to unit pricing. Imagine 2 offers: one seller is offering you one max 4* unit for 8 TE; the other is offering you one 4* unit that has been enhanced to level 75 and one 4* unit that has been enhanced to level 22 for a total of 8 TE. Both offers are fair by the standards of this list. However, if you - as the buyer - are solely interested in sacrificing these units in order to level up a different card, the second offer is much better. Sacrificing the max 4* unit from the first offer would grant the card you're feeding it to a total of 36900 XP (without any bonusses). Sacrificing the two 4* units from the second offer would grant the card you're feeding them to a total of 45450 XP (without any bonusses). This is a significant difference!

I think the fairest way to set TE prices to halfway-leveled units is by taking the values from both lists and finding a comprimise in between those two values. On top of that, I have made another observation. This observation was inspired by bleachcosplay's post in this topic (5th post on this page). The market for 4* feeders would receive an enormous boost if everyone stopped leveling their 4* units to level 80 before selling them! Instead, I think level 38 should be the level that 4* feeders are sold at. The value of a 4* unit that has been enhanced to level 38 is 4 TE on the first list and 2 TE on the second list. Selling these cards for 3 TE is a fair compromise. Here's the beauty of my proposal:
+ two 4* units that have been enhanced to level 38 grant approximately the same amount of XP to a card when they're used as feeders.
+ enhancing one 4* unit to level 38 requires approximately 20% of the effort required to enhance one 4* unit to level 80.
This is incredibly beneficial to both the buyers and the sellers!
+ The sellers can enhance five (!) 4* units to level 38 with the same effort that they would need to enhance one 4* unit to level 80. They can sell those five units for a total of 15 TE, instead of just selling the one max 4* unit for 8 TE. They've almost doubled their profit this way.
+ For 24 TE, a buyer could only buy three max 4* units. The buyers can buy eight 4* units that have been enhanced to level 38 for a total of 24 TE, which equals four max 4* units in the amount of XP gained from sacrificing them. They're increasing their revenue with 33% this way.


I had first intended to write an informative topic that could possibly be moved to the Encyclopedia section, but what I started as an objective study has turned into a personal crusade. My new mission in life is to get everyone on this forum to sell their 4* feeders at level 38 for 3 TE, instead of selling them at level 80 for 8 TE. Here's how you can help:
1) Sell your 4* feeders at level 38 for 3 TE
2) Point your friends to this topic
3) SPREAD THE WORD (yes, I know this is the same as the previous point, but it never hurts to emphasize)

I sincerely hope my proposal will be taken into account seriously by everybody reading this topic. Please leave a comment, whether you think my ideas are good or not. I'm not one to get upset over critisism. I will of course be keeping a close eye on this topic, so I can answer any questions that may arise.


Last edited by Colaleon on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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Colaleon
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:21 am

(reserved in case I want to add more lists/comparisons)
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VitaeMortifer
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:45 am

This is actually very very cool, and I wish it could get some more exposure to help sell leveled 4*s and max 3*s

Just out of curiosity - where does a maxed out 2* rank? I'm guessing pretty poorly
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Colaleon
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:01 am

VitaeMortifer wrote:
Just out of curiosity - where does a maxed out 2* rank? I'm guessing pretty poorly
Sacrificing a lvl 40 2* unit results in the exact same XP gain as sacrificing a lvl 12 4* unit. So that should hold a value in between 0,5 and 1 TE. I imagine most players would not value it higher than 0,5 TE, because of how it's less space-efficient to use 2* feeders than it is to use 3* or 4* feeders. (I'm referring to how players prefer to enhance as many units as possible in one batch when the unit being enhanced still has a low level, in order to save luna)

And because I know the question of where a max 1* ranks will be coming next: a lvl 20 1* unit grants 1100 XP when sacrificed, while a lvl 1 4* unit grants 1350. You can do the math on that one yourself. Wink
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bleachcosplay
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:13 am

This is something I have wondered about before (although not to this extent; the math is nice to see). And although usefulness for enhancing is linear, the effort to level a unit is not linear. It is a lot easier to go from level 1 to 10 than it is to go from level 70 to 80. And having a MAX feeder does have one benefit: You are using less feeders, which takes less room. Then again, I think it takes around 15 max 4* to max a 6*, so room probably isn't an issue.

In any case, I think it would be more efficient to sell lvl. 60 4* based on your information. Four lvl. 60 4* has the same effect in enhancing as three lvl. 80 4*, but is easier to obtain.

Then again, this is a market. People will be looking to get cheap deals whenever they can, and an unmaxed card is a good excuse.
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Colaleon
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:06 am

I realized that my list only took the effort of the seller into account, neglecting the needs of the buyer. While rewriting my topic, I was struck by a realization of how the 4* feeder market could be greatly improved. I should thank the above poster for inspiring this train of thought.

The first post in this topic is now completely rewritten. Most of the objective study that was originally there is still maintained, but near the end of it you'll now find it turning into an argumentation of why you should be selling/buying 4* feeders at level 38 instead of at level 80. It's quite a wall-of-text, but I promise it'll be worth reading. Wink
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Colaleon
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:08 am

I changed the topic title to attract more readers. Please comment if you have read the topic!
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Soggytoaster
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:35 am

I am extremely impressed by this thread.
I believe it deserves a sticky somewhere as it not only benefits the seller but also the buyer.

It is easy to see how your math works when using the card enhancing calculator.

You already mentioned this but I thought I would post the basic calculator figures that came
out in plain sight as you didn't show them:

3 x lvl 80 4* = 24 te cost which = 121,770 xp when used in enhancement
8 x lvl 38 4* = 24 te cost which = 158,400 xp when used in enhancement

Both instances cost the same but the xp bonus from enhancement while using 8 x lvl 38 4* feeders
is significantly higher AND the seller puts in a lot less effort to create the feeders.

I really hope people start to see the benefit of this too Colaleon.
Well done to all involved Smile

I shall be linking this in my signature and spreading the word.
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:42 am

Signature changed to incorporate your thread and spread the word.
Once again, thank you for your hard work.
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nathantmorin
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:11 am

Wow.. thank you so much for the enlightenment. I will begin to enhance until lvl38 before feeding lol
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:48 am

I apologise if I am posting useless data but I am trying to figure out ways to market this idea to people.
Perhaps the following will help people understand why it is better to sell level 38 4* cards over level 80
4* cards without reading as large a wall of text as your post:

---Doubling profits when using feeders---

An example scenario:

Inventory:
130 x lvl 10 2* feeders

Conditions:
50% Enhancement xp bonus event
10% Blessing of the Valkyries skill
Level 38 4* cards sell for 3 te each
Level 80 4* cards sell for 8 te each

----------------------------------------

Creating a lvl 38 4* feeder:
13 x lvl 10 2* feeders = 1 x lvl 38 4*

Creating a lvl 80 4* feeder:
65 x lvl 10 2* feeders = 1 x lvl 80 4*

----------------------------------------

Using the above as a guide we shall use the 130 x lvl 10 2* feeders to create the following two outcomes:

Level 38 4* cards:
130 x lvl 10 2* feeders = 10 x lvl 38 4* cards
10 x lvl 38 4* @ 3 te per card = 30 te

Level 80 4* cards:
130 x lvl 10 2* feeders = 2 x lvl 80 4* cards
2 x lvl 80 4* @ 8 te per card = 16 te


The profit from selling level 38 4* feeders compared to level 80 4* feeders is almost double
for the same amount of lvl 10 2* feeders used to create the sellable units in the first place.

----------------------------------------

---Benefits of buying level 38 4* feeders instead of level 80 4* feeders---

Conditions:
10% Blessing of the Valkyries skill
Level 38 4* cards sell for 3 te each
Level 80 4* cards sell for 8 te each

Higher xp gain from feeding while costing the same:
3 x lvl 80 4* = 24 te cost which = 121,770 xp when used in enhancement
8 x lvl 38 4* = 24 te cost which = 158,400 xp when used in enhancement

A significant difference in xp gain between the two types of feeders for the same total te cost.



Feel free to use anything I have posted if useful or simply dismiss it if not :)


Last edited by Soggytoaster on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sabin76
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:58 am

Shocked Though I haven't even maxed out a 4* yet myself, this will be very useful for when I actually start to sell off the 4's I'm not using. Thank you for this thread!
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:59 am

This is an excellent post and I hope it more people adopt this strategy. I think that many of us know that grinding for and burning max feeders is inefficient, it's just that we've been too lazy to bother with the math to figure out the optimum level to buy and sell...I know I've been.

One thing I think should be taken into consideration is the cost obtaining the 4* to level. Unless you are buying packs, have a source who sells for Luna or don't care about your event 4*s, you'll have to buy your 4*s using TE (buying them for SS, Pots and other event consumables amounts to the same thing). I may not be looking hard enough, but the best I've seen was 2 4* for 1TE. So going with that price, using Soggytoast's example, the actual profit is 25TE for 10 lvl38 and 15TE for 2 max. The profit margin is about 30% less with the cost to obtain the 4*, but the strategy is still superior.
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Cam
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:13 pm

Great post! I'm on board and will apply this strategy while spreading the word. =]
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:26 pm

I helped? *sniff I feel so special Very Happy

But I like this thread. Especially since the math is laid out very well. I'm going to try to ask people who actually buy 4* feeders and see how they feel about this.

Another Note: Some people these days are selling 4* at 300k luna, which would increase the profit of TE. Although they may be difficult to find.
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Despoted
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:40 pm

bleachcosplay wrote:
I helped? *sniff I feel so special Very Happy

But I like this thread. Especially since the math is laid out very well. I'm going to try to ask people who actually buy 4* feeders and see how they feel about this.

Another Note: Some people these days are selling 4* at 300k luna, which would increase the profit of TE. Although they may be difficult to find.
I need to know who these people are and buy a couple...dozen 4*s.
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:10 pm

Despoted wrote:
I need to know who these people are and buy a couple...dozen 4*s.

Lol. I bought them from Israeloved. ID is 51060788
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:21 pm

Update: Madmanazn figured out that two lvl. 39 4* gives the EXACT exp. as a max 4* (using the enhancement calculator).

Would it be a better idea to make them lvl. 39 instead of 38?
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:30 pm

S&W 38 special 4*s
Best bang for your buck.


I'll be making more than one SW4* feeder
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Soggytoaster
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:17 pm

Despoted wrote:
This is an excellent post and I hope it more people adopt this strategy. I think that many of us know that grinding for and burning max feeders is inefficient, it's just that we've been too lazy to bother with the math to figure out the optimum level to buy and sell...I know I've been.

One thing I think should be taken into consideration is the cost obtaining the 4* to level. Unless you are buying packs, have a source who sells for Luna or don't care about your event 4*s, you'll have to buy your 4*s using TE (buying them for SS, Pots and other event consumables amounts to the same thing). I may not be looking hard enough, but the best I've seen was 2 4* for 1TE. So going with that price, using Soggytoast's example, the actual profit is 25TE for 10 lvl38 and 15TE for 2 max. The profit margin is about 30% less with the cost to obtain the 4*, but the strategy is still superior.

Very true.

I was thinking about this as I was "attempting" to fall asleep last night.
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:23 pm

bleachcosplay wrote:
Update: Madmanazn figured out that two lvl. 39 4* gives the EXACT exp. as a max 4* (using the enhancement calculator).

Would it be a better idea to make them lvl. 39 instead of 38?

Oh yeah it does too! Exact match.
Awesome stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:41 pm

One question I have is this:
Is it worth someone buying 28 x lvl 38 (or 39) 4* feeders to level a 6* from 1 - 120?
The cost is roughly 80 te to do so (compared to the equivalent 14 x lvl 80 4* feeders at 112 te)
but it is still quite costly. Are there plenty of cases in which a fresh 6* gains 80 or more te
profit when maxed? I don't really follow the 6* market yet so I am unsure.
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:47 pm

With 50% bonus enhancement xp it becomes:
19 x lvl 38 (or 39) 4* = max 6*
This comes to 57 te which I am guessing is a much easier target to hit in terms of
profiting from maxing a 6* from fresh status.
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:49 pm

Soggytoaster wrote:
One question I have is this:
Is it worth someone buying 28 x lvl 38 (or 39) 4* feeders to level a 6* from 1 - 120?
The cost is roughly 80 te to do so (compared to the equivalent 14 x lvl 80 4* feeders at 112 te)
but it is still quite costly. Are there plenty of cases in which a fresh 6* gains 80 or more te
profit when maxed? I don't really follow the 6* market yet so I am unsure.


The seemingly inaccurate but often quoted Fanta Trade Reference Guide shows some price differences greater than 80te between a fresh 6* and a maxed 6*, so who knows. They also show one or two fresh 6*s more expensive than their corresponding maxed 6*. It may be worth it in some cases.

"So you're saying there's a chance" - Lloyd (Jim Carrey), Dumb and Dumber
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PostSubject: Re: 4* feeders should be sold at level 38   Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:51 pm

Soggytoaster wrote:
With 50% bonus enhancement xp it becomes:
19 x lvl 38 (or 39) 4* = max 6*
This comes to 57 te which I am guessing is a much easier target to hit in terms of
profiting from maxing a 6* from fresh status.

Any idea when the next enhancement bonus is coming?
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