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 Struesdell's Theorycrafting

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Dannupa



Join date : 2012-09-18
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PostSubject: 4*?   Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:59 am

You know it's coming...4* list for us plebe's please! Love the thread and the concept.

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Pugilist



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:33 am

Question:

Have you factored in the Luna cost of each card?

I have noticed while enhancing and selling that the cost/price on each card is different even among its own star range, (i.e. No 1* card has the same cost/price as any other 1* card.)



I once punched Adam Smith.
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Curasa
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:13 am

struesdell wrote:
Serotheo wrote:
This is based on overall utility right?

Yeah, my evaluation is largely mathematical by assigning a value to everything a card can have, and then comparing them.

So based on raw damage output and modified by skill abilities and other factors, these charts represent the relative value of these cards mechanically. It has nothing to do with the appeal or relative tradeworthyness of the cards. Just math. Nina kills things better than Monica.


Unless I'm looking at different Units, I don't think that's accurate. Monica looks like the more solid Unit over a Nina.

Monica at max is 90k, 60k and 100k ( roughly ). She's a speed D with Slow. Now you have Nina with a max of 60k/blah/blah with KB and speed C. Sure, a D is slower than a C, but by the time that target gets back in range of a Nina there's an awesome chance Monica would have killed it already despite her slower speed.

Not only that, I'm going to assume ( probably shouldn't ) that most people invest in their Skills. Doing so would increase the KB of Nina lessening her own DPS. Sure, you could factor in the other skill that increases lead unit's attack, but it's moot as the target that was hit is now on vacation at the start of the map. For Monica though, the target is right there. She will actually benefit from the 10% faster attack speed and that should make her what? A C?
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Valhades
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:15 pm

Curasa wrote:
struesdell wrote:
Serotheo wrote:
This is based on overall utility right?

Yeah, my evaluation is largely mathematical by assigning a value to everything a card can have, and then comparing them.

So based on raw damage output and modified by skill abilities and other factors, these charts represent the relative value of these cards mechanically. It has nothing to do with the appeal or relative tradeworthyness of the cards. Just math. Nina kills things better than Monica.


Unless I'm looking at different Units, I don't think that's accurate. Monica looks like the more solid Unit over a Nina.

Monica at max is 90k, 60k and 100k ( roughly ). She's a speed D with Slow. Now you have Nina with a max of 60k/blah/blah with KB and speed C. Sure, a D is slower than a C, but by the time that target gets back in range of a Nina there's an awesome chance Monica would have killed it already despite her slower speed.

Not only that, I'm going to assume ( probably shouldn't ) that most people invest in their Skills. Doing so would increase the KB of Nina lessening her own DPS. Sure, you could factor in the other skill that increases lead unit's attack, but it's moot as the target that was hit is now on vacation at the start of the map. For Monica though, the target is right there. She will actually benefit from the 10% faster attack speed and that should make her what? A C?

Also, you'd probably want different categories such as Best In Class 'Knockback' or Best In Class 'Slow' and also a Raw DPS measure (land being the most important obviously). Realistically you will have 1 or 2 slow units, and 1 or 2 knockback units to achieve stunlock on multiple mobs. Then having (a) raw DPS killer unit(s) is important too to quickly clean up stun-locked units before more spawn and overwhelm your stun-lockers.

Generally though, I'd say DPS is the hardest to acquire because of the plethora of heroes that already have KB/Slow so you'll have no issues finding stun-lock utilities. Range is also not a substantial factor (such as 130 vs 150, or 150 vs 175) because stun locked units will always be in range if you place your heroes correctly. The only time range is a benefit is when the range is 200 (such as Hildegarde or Alexander) which is enough range to fire over a unit (meaning you can put it behind your knockback unit and it can still attack). Range 200 allows for additional DPS to be fit into your killing-zone where it would typically be full.

This mostly applies if you're attacking somebody with a ridiculous defense -- the quest TD is easy. Event-wise the best measure of units is the total number of stats and the number of points the unit costs (I believe the JP wiki divides the two to create aan efficiency rating).
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struesdell
Baron Von Vermin [LEGENDARY]


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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:36 pm

I am not defeated. Explaining my position will take visual aids I cannot produce while I am at work.

Mad
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cuddytime



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:30 pm

Curasa wrote:
struesdell wrote:
Serotheo wrote:
This is based on overall utility right?

Yeah, my evaluation is largely mathematical by assigning a value to everything a card can have, and then comparing them.

So based on raw damage output and modified by skill abilities and other factors, these charts represent the relative value of these cards mechanically. It has nothing to do with the appeal or relative tradeworthyness of the cards. Just math. Nina kills things better than Monica.


Unless I'm looking at different Units, I don't think that's accurate. Monica looks like the more solid Unit over a Nina.

Monica at max is 90k, 60k and 100k ( roughly ). She's a speed D with Slow. Now you have Nina with a max of 60k/blah/blah with KB and speed C. Sure, a D is slower than a C, but by the time that target gets back in range of a Nina there's an awesome chance Monica would have killed it already despite her slower speed.

Not only that, I'm going to assume ( probably shouldn't ) that most people invest in their Skills. Doing so would increase the KB of Nina lessening her own DPS. Sure, you could factor in the other skill that increases lead unit's attack, but it's moot as the target that was hit is now on vacation at the start of the map. For Monica though, the target is right there. She will actually benefit from the 10% faster attack speed and that should make her what? A C?
Nina's range is much further than monica's... (about 1 square further. Also, when you factor down to D-Speed, she's only 8K DPS behind monica.

Also, you have to consider cost.... in terms of unit damage per COST Nina is second to none.
Also, Knockback has greater utility for range units than slow does because when you look at sustained damage over time, once a unit gets out of range, that unit is done for. Knockback in most cases will squeeze out one extra hit vs. slow (for range)
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Curasa
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:26 pm

1: Nina's 175 and Monica is 150. I'm not seeing how she's nearly a square better. That's only .25 of a square better if my math's correct.

2: Cost is almost irrelevant. If you can't afford something all at once, wait a min. Allies are awesome.

3: Sure, KB is great. Have a Lies hang back a few squares to bounce them back to your heavy hitter like Monica. Slap it for 90k and be done with it.

4: Knockback having 1 extra attack vs. Slow is something I'd have to see. There's a few factors that need to be addressed. A Slow 6 is going to last a good bit of time and make them all but stopped. Combined with the skill associated with Slow; I just don't see how KB is better.

If anything, it's just a matter of preference unless you guys test everything out. Not just looking at the maxed stats. I'm talking the whole shabang. Max stats, position of Unit, Type of Unit, Name of Unit, Level of Unit, Quest level, Skill level ( would need for each ) etc...If you want to actually be 100% certain that KB is better than Slow.
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cuddytime



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:36 pm

Curasa wrote:
1: Nina's 175 and Monica is 150. I'm not seeing how she's nearly a square better. That's only .25 of a square better if my math's correct.

2: Cost is almost irrelevant. If you can't afford something all at once, wait a min. Allies are awesome.

3: Sure, KB is great. Have a Lies hang back a few squares to bounce them back to your heavy hitter like Monica. Slap it for 90k and be done with it.

4: Knockback having 1 extra attack vs. Slow is something I'd have to see. There's a few factors that need to be addressed. A Slow 6 is going to last a good bit of time and make them all but stopped. Combined with the skill associated with Slow; I just don't see how KB is better.

If anything, it's just a matter of preference unless you guys test everything out. Not just looking at the maxed stats. I'm talking the whole shabang. Max stats, position of Unit, Type of Unit, Name of Unit, Level of Unit, Quest level, Skill level ( would need for each ) etc...If you want to actually be 100% certain that KB is better than Slow.

1. that's not how the math works. i put 1 melee unit next to a range unit and tested it with monica and nina. nina attacked 1/2 to 1 square first.
2. i think that this current event has proven that cost does matter
3. this is just based on individual stats (only one character) because when you conclude combo's obviously theyr'e going to be invincible.
4. i have tested it and in general slow vs. kb have certain benefits however, i noticed that for range, kb tends to be a lot better as you can just keep pushing them back to your max range distance.

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Curasa
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:10 pm

If the way I'm figuring how the attacks work ( based on 100=1 Square ), is wrong, could you point me to a website stating how the attack range is correctly figured? I'd prefer something more than anecdotal.

As far as the cost bit; I'd have to wager only for the 1% club. Those that consistently shell out cash for a 6* team. For the other 99%, cost is something that probably isn't 'that' big of a deal. I've yet to have issues with it in this Event, the previous, and in normal Quests.

And for your number 4: Sure, KB will keep pushing them back prolonging the amount of time to kill the enemy unit. Depending on it's speed and health, it could still slip past a solo Nina. I feel a Unit with Slow ( Monica for this argument ) has a better chance at killing a Unit solo, since while waiting to hit again, the enemy is, well, Slowed. However, if the enemy Unit is somewhat fast with a nice chunk of health, it could potentially slide past a KB Unit in their downtime between attacks.



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Valhades
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:49 pm

Tower Defense:
As I said, range doesn't matter unless you have 200 range. Everything will typically remain in your stun lock zone so you want to fit as much DPS into that stun lock zone as possible. You need 200 range to attack past a unit, 175 is not enough -- You can test this by placing a unit behind another adjacent to the track, 175 cannot reach while 200 can. Realistically you have both slow and knockback to achieve stunlock. The important thing is killing them quickly enough so the number of stun locked mobs don't add up to the point your stun-lockers cannot handle them (and stuff slips by).

Event:
Venus Colliseum is the only event so far to use the TD cost stat. In the Demon Tower event (and the upcoming Black Dragon Castle), cost is irrelevant because you use only your leader (and your ally/allies). A unit's total stats are usually the best indicator for how good they are event-wise.
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cuddytime



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:11 pm

there's also going to be a mina's Colosseum and another future event with similar mechanics... you haven't seen the last of low cost units.

curasa, have you ever tried to kill a stray cat with slow units? it's kinda an epic fail if you don't have knockback it's much better for speedy units.

whereas slow monsters get dominated by slow effect units.

in this game, no unit has 200 attack range... (alex has 175, hilde does as well)

also, all of this is based purely on testing certain combinations you know this... to be quite honest, monica is quite mediocre...

again, this is based on all based on individual calculations.. you can't do combo calculations when evaluating individual cards.
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Curasa
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:23 pm

cuddytime wrote:
there's also going to be a mina's Colosseum and another future event with similar mechanics... you haven't seen the last of low cost units.

curasa, have you ever tried to kill a stray cat with slow units? it's kinda an epic fail if you don't have knockback it's much better for speedy units.

whereas slow monsters get dominated by slow effect units.

in this game, no unit has 200 attack range... (alex has 175, hilde does as well)

also, all of this is based purely on testing certain combinations you know this... to be quite honest, monica is quite mediocre...

again, this is based on all based on individual calculations.. you can't do combo calculations when evaluating individual cards.


I was hoping you'd point me to how the range works; but I figured you wouldn't even after blatantly saying I was incorrect.

Yes, I've been against enough Stray Cats to know that they are annoying. I think it's best If I just clam up here. It's getting to the point where those that have spent $$$ are becoming biased.
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Valhades
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:39 pm

cuddytime wrote:
there's also going to be a mina's Colosseum and another future event with similar mechanics... you haven't seen the last of low cost units.

curasa, have you ever tried to kill a stray cat with slow units? it's kinda an epic fail if you don't have knockback it's much better for speedy units.

whereas slow monsters get dominated by slow effect units.

in this game, no unit has 200 attack range... (alex has 175, hilde does as well)

also, all of this is based purely on testing certain combinations you know this... to be quite honest, monica is quite mediocre...

again, this is based on all based on individual calculations.. you can't do combo calculations when evaluating individual cards.

Game disagrees with you:


Test it yourself as I said. Stick a 175 range unit like Sheryl or Nina adjacently behind the front row -- it will never attack. I regularly stick Hilde and my allies Alexander in the second row and they can reach fine.

Calling Monica mediocre is quite ignorant. She has the highest total stats in the game, second only to Dragonewt Georgio. In leader-centric events, she is strongest possible leader until the Black Dragon Castle event releases a few DGs. Calling her mediocre simply just sounds like jealousy now. You seem to be heavily overrating Nina considering her land attack is only 66k. I've been using my ally's Vlad to much greater effect than Nina considering he has double the land attack stat with only one grade attack speed lower.
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cuddytime



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:14 pm

i don't see why everyone is attacking me lol.. if you don't want me to share what i know then that's cool
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Curasa
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:55 am

cuddytime wrote:
i don't see why everyone is attacking me lol.. if you don't want me to share what i know then that's cool

It's not that we're 'attacking' you; it's just you seem biased on your 1000 Nina's. Being biased while trying to do research is something that's counter-productive to not only yourself, but to others.

I think Nina's a good Unit, but I don't think I'd give any of my 4*s ( my entire party ) away for her. For KB I'll keep my Agnes and Lies. In my opinion, KB is a better job for a 4-5*, not a 6*.
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cuddytime



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:25 am

i'm not biased... i've had and used all 6* cards out on the market...'
there's are 3-4 cards that are the best on the market right now:
vlad, nina, cecilia, anastasia -- based purely on stats and cost performance.

i'm tired of people saying monica is a great card... it's a good card, but it's not top in terms of performance...
look at the stat differences between petra and monica... they're almost negligible AND petra costs 10 less to bring out

also as a final note: i have 2 monica's why would i be jealous? lol.

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struesdell
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:24 am

I really appreciate everyone's input.
I think it's great that this game has more to go on that just the raw numbers.
In so many of these games, you're just looking for a single power level number and maybe, MAYBE, some kind of "boosts your team a little bit" skill activation.
Part of what I like about Fantasica is that it has a little more meat on its bone. More mechanics to drive competing value perceptions between players. That makes for a much more interesting game and a much stronger economy. Most of those other games can't have speculative economies or anything on account of the value of one card vs another is typically very clear.
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clocksprocket
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Theorycrafting   Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:54 pm

Locked thread on request. Check out struesdell's new thread on this topic.

I'd like to remind people that card rankings are based on opinion and to take it as such, and not get riled up or resort to any name calling or jibes. Thank you! Smile
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