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 Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]

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brokenchicken
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:19 pm

Meg is indeed less valuable in a boss or arena situation, and no surprise; her biggest assets (range and poison ticks) are devalued or gone there. Good thing the tier list was specifically not geared to measure boss or arena situations, huh?

As clocks noted, bosses are different animals because while high attack and high speed are hardly BAD in 'normal' levels, they're doubly valuable there. Someone can compute their own tier list for bosses but it should be fairly self-evident.

Strues's original comments on Meg still hold true: "Long range poison means more ticks sooner." In normal levels where poison and range are both in play, she's a monster against ground targets and poison damage significantly supplements her weaker air attack. She has a fast projectile, decent speed and hits targets farther away than Franz or Rem (meaning that she can still hit from the back row with ease, so to speak).

But look at their placement: Meg and Franz are a whole one place apart in the rankings. Better range barely offsets more balanced damage. The nature of tiers is that SOMEONE has to be the last in each one. Does Franz suffer mightily by being in 8th place instead of 7th? I doubt it.
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dakkon107



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:27 am

What do you think about Halloween Monica? Her MAX stats are now up on the JP wiki, and she really doesn't seem any better than the other 6* poison options. Just looking at stats, I'd say Vine and Succubus are better than her. Glad that I offloaded her as soon as I got her, although throwing pumpkins is cool!
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tyrrin



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:19 am

Hi!

First of all, thanks for keeping this tier list updated! It has been very useful.

I was thinking that maybe the tier classification could make it into the units spreadsheet. It would be very nice to be able to sort/filter units by tier. Unless of course this tier classification is deemed too controversial for that.

Another suggestion is that, in addition to a "general" tier classification, units could be tiered regarding their suitability to specific types of events (i.e. boss events would ignore range and special abilities; team battle events would consider deployment cost and maybe rank the special abilites differently).

And thanks again for keeping this tiered list.
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Bsalza



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:29 am

Thank you Clock as newbie I was looking for something like this to bad i found after i traded Yuki for Thrain XD haha
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clocksprocket
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:01 am

dakkon107 wrote:
What do you think about Halloween Monica? Her MAX stats are now up on the JP wiki, and she really doesn't seem any better than the other 6* poison options. Just looking at stats, I'd say Vine and Succubus are better than her. Glad that I offloaded her as soon as I got her, although throwing pumpkins is cool!
I'm waiting to get other event unit stats before updating the list.

However, you're correct. She's on par with Dorothea & Succubus (two other poison units) -- 30DC cost/D speed/150 range, same land attack, much poorer air attack, and better sea attack (she has the third highest sea attack in the game). Essentially, a midling unit that's not really worth the trades I've seen her go for.

tyrrin wrote:
I was thinking that maybe the tier classification could make it into the units spreadsheet. It would be very nice to be able to sort/filter units by tier. Unless of course this tier classification is deemed too controversial for that.

Another suggestion is that, in addition to a "general" tier classification, units could be tiered regarding their suitability to specific types of events (i.e. boss events would ignore range and special abilities; team battle events would consider deployment cost and maybe rank the special abilites differently).
This is too controversial for the units spreadsheet, bu thanks for the thoughts. (:

I have arena rankings and I might actually post those in a spreadsheet for people to see. Then people can tell me what I'm missing, haha.

Bsalza wrote:
Thank you Clock as newbie I was looking for something like this to bad i found after i traded Yuki for Thrain XD haha
I'm glad you find this useful, but this is a general reminder that this isn't some end-all be-all value tierlist and definitely not a pricing guide. Thrain is typically unwanted regardless, but although I think Yuki is a pretty good unit, she's very common to find / sell.

brokenchicken wrote:
But look at their placement: Meg and Franz are a whole one place apart in the rankings. Better range barely offsets more balanced damage. The nature of tiers is that SOMEONE has to be the last in each one. Does Franz suffer mightily by being in 8th place instead of 7th? I doubt it.
brokenchicken's other comments are very good (especially about what struesdell said earlier in regards to poison & longer range making poison more effective) but I wanted to highlight this again -- although the tierlist is in a roughly "ranked" order as well, that's not always the case (sometimes I insert units in a general area in the tier instead of ranked) and a good thing to note is that even if they are ranked, sometimes the rating between two units is minimal (one might have 100,050 rating and the other 100,100 rating, you know?). Obviously some units within a tier are better/worse but tiers should be taken as a whole.

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Bsalza



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:10 pm

I will keep that mind but at least it is a point of reference Smile thanks again for all the hard work
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tyrrin



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:48 am

It's a pity that these can't go into the units spreadsheet (yet?).

Looking forward to the arena rankings. If you need any help, count on me.

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dakkon107



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:48 pm

Max stats for Vampiress and Werewolf are now posted on JP wiki.

Vampiress lv 120 (Ranged)
Ground = 73,005 / Air = 86,095 / Sea = 59,900
Range = 175 / Speed = D / Deploy = 20 / Poison 6

Werewolf lv 100 (Melee)
Ground = 42,130 / Sky = 38,490 / Sea = 42,130

Range = 130 / Speed = C / Deploy = 30 / Knockback 5

Werewolf looks like an easy Tier 1 as she has higher max stats than any other 5* melee as well as a good ability.

I am not sure what will happen with Vampiress, since she is only a "D" speed, but poison gets a huge boost in damage from being 175 range. It will be interesting to see what happens.
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Katybug99



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:38 pm

I know this would be a lot of extra calculations, but do you think it would be useful to create tier-lists for the different types of events (player vs player, boss battles, regular game play, etc)? Stats would be weighted differently, so I'm wondering if there would be any significant changes to the list that could alter card values based on their strengths, in addition to the over-all value

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dakkon107



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:40 pm

Katybug99 wrote:
I know this would be a lot of extra calculations, but do you think it would be useful to create tier-lists for the different types of events (player vs player, boss battles, regular game play, etc)? Stats would be weighted differently, so I'm wondering if there would be any significant changes to the list that could alter card values based on their strengths, in addition to the over-all value


I think they are working on something like that (Arena Rankings), but Clock said that it isn't accurate enough yet.
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clocksprocket
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:23 am

dakkon107 wrote:
Max stats for Vampiress and Werewolf are now posted on JP wiki.

Vampiress lv 120 (Ranged)
Ground = 73,005 / Air = 86,095 / Sea = 59,900
Range = 175 / Speed = D / Deploy = 20 / Poison 6

Werewolf lv 100 (Melee)
Ground = 42,130 / Sky = 38,490 / Sea = 42,130

Range = 130 / Speed = C / Deploy = 30 / Knockback 5

Werewolf looks like an easy Tier 1 as she has higher max stats than any other 5* melee as well as a good ability.

I am not sure what will happen with Vampiress, since she is only a "D" speed, but poison gets a huge boost in damage from being 175 range. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Thanks for posting these here! I updated both struesdell's spreadsheet info with it and the master unit spreadsheet so that was helpful.

Without even running any numbers, if those are really Werewolf's stats (and not someone being silly and posting deployed stats or something with a 20% boost) then yes, Werewolf is easily tier 1 (both in general and arena rankings, even weighted, I think).

If we believe that a 175 poison unit is great because it can keep re-applying poison and poison things for longer, then I think the Vampiress would be the new best poison unit. Her 20 deploy cost for a 6* also makes her decent, but not the best, for arena.

I am going to try to update the list when we know all the other max stats.

Quote :
I think they are working on something like that (Arena Rankings), but Clock said that it isn't accurate enough yet.

This is true. Sorry I've been sort of slow about this. I may post a spreadsheet with just the numbers (not the calculations) and let people tell me what they think, though. What I've been worried about is the damage calculation -- it was really close, but still off (for example, Plautia does 67.7k actual damage against a predicted 72.5k, and what we base the ratings off of is the predicted value since we can't go and deploy every max unit and see what their damage is). Heidemarie on the other hand did 114k damage instead of a predicted 110k damage. I'm sure there's some kind of simple tweak to the damage formula to arrive at these different numbers but I am not sure what that would be. Still, the values are relatively close enough that it may be worth posting arena ratings regardless.

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snappycow
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:46 am

How does the new Halloween Monica rank? I've seen a lot of players with Max H Monica but the stats aren't published on the JP wiki yet.

Anybody care to share the stats?
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aszutai
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:12 am

http://w.livedoor.jp/fantasica/d/%a5%e6%a5%cb%a5%c3%a5%c8%a1%fa6#halloweenmonica

There you go, 212,480 total atk power, 150 range, D Speed, 30 Cost and comes with a Poison skill. Not bad, but I think the original one's better with higher atk (257k) & a better skill (Slow)
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snappycow
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:25 am

Hmm yeah, looks like an above average 6 Like a Star @ heaven poison unit :/ But price for her will remain high I guess, because of the rarity and artwork. Bummers.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting my earlier post in regards to HMonica:

Quote :
However, you're correct. She's on par with Dorothea & Succubus (two other poison units) -- 30DC cost/D speed/150 range, same land attack, much poorer air attack, and better sea attack (she has the third highest sea attack in the game). Essentially, a midling unit that's not really worth the trades I've seen her go for.

Monica is one of the best 6*s in the game, so it's not surprising they don't measure up.

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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:14 pm

So just saw this list. Why is Alexander so down low?
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:56 pm

TheGrimAngel wrote:
So just saw this list. Why is Alexander so down low?

Weak max stats (for a 6 Like a Star @ heaven, but still better than most 5 Like a Star @ heaven), slow attack speed, even slower projectile, and an ability not very useful in events (knockback or slow is usually preferred).

But then again, as the 1st post said, it's all opinion. If Alex is your only 6 Like a Star @ heaven then he might as well be rank number 1. Or if you're into epic beard heroes with exploding spear thingies.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:29 pm

can someone explain why meg is top tier for 5*s?
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:39 pm

j0k3r3r wrote:
can someone explain why meg is top tier for 5*s?

MAX stats and her range

She is cheap because she's common and unattractive
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brokenchicken
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:52 pm

Once more with feeling: "Long range poison means more ticks sooner."

Meg has very good range (175), decent speed (C), a fast-moving projectile, and strong damage against Ground and Sea -- particularly when you figure in Poison ticks. Even against Air, poison kicks in to boost her output.

I'm watching my maxed Meg fight now in what should be a bad situation for her, 28-6 (mummies and bats). She's hitting A-defense Mummies for 16K -- but then the poison kicks in for 14K a tick!

On a more balanced level full of ground targets, 24-6, she's hitting everything but mummies for about 40K + 14k/tick. Since the second tick happens pretty quickly, that's 68K damage at range before she even gets her second shot off. Not bad at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:08 pm

brokenchicken wrote:
Once more with feeling: "Long range poison means more ticks sooner."

Meg has very good range (175), decent speed (C), a fast-moving projectile, and strong damage against Ground and Sea -- particularly when you figure in Poison ticks. Even against Air, poison kicks in to boost her output.

I'm watching my maxed Meg fight now in what should be a bad situation for her, 28-6 (mummies and bats). She's hitting A-defense Mummies for 16K -- but then the poison kicks in for 14K a tick!

On a more balanced level full of ground targets, 24-6, she's hitting everything but mummies for about 40K + 14k/tick. Since the second tick happens pretty quickly, that's 68K damage at range before she even gets her second shot off. Not bad at all.

On the same note, MAX Vampiress as your leader with at least lv 9 leader buffs can solo 24-6. Her poison kills the mummies much faster than other ranged attackers.
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jsherman
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:05 pm

On a side note: when are we getting the Halloween units in here?
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dakkon107



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:10 pm

jsherman wrote:
On a side note: when are we getting the Halloween units in here?

You can actually tell where most of the new units will go by looking at their stats and abilities. For example, H. Monica is just a cookie cutter magic poison unit and will fall in mid tier 3 most likely. Werewolf is a fast attacker with amazingly high stats and a great ability, and looks like the best 5* melee, therefore Tier 1.

Vampiress is the only one that I have a question about, since I am not sure just how valuable range 175 poison will be. From playing around in quests, its really good, but quests are super easy.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:46 pm

I've been hearing all over that H Helmut is attacking on par with some C speed units ( Sheryl was the example I think I heard...or Sonia...IDK for sure please dont kill me) I havent spent much time with my Helmut and was wondering if anyone could confirm/refute that claim and if it's true I wanted to know if Clocks and S had a way to account for that when they place him or will he just get the same treatment as other E speed units, just out of curiosity.

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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:39 am

So how does H Monica Stack up to Regular Monica?
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