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 Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]

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snappycow
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:23 am

For new players, who have no point of reference whatsover for the values of units, I'd say even a highly debated tier list is useful.
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Whenesday
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:39 am

Yeap I agree with snappycow, as it gave me valuable insight on the characters which I have no chance of using so far.
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dnonamus
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:51 pm

clocksprocket wrote:
I checked, and she comes in lower than Alexander in ratings. She has lower stats and lower range, though Alexander has a ridiculously low speed. What do you mean by "does" better in 24-6? Could partially be due to the fact that there are different monsters, etc. and she's a magic type -- but the current model doesn't have any weights put in for melee/missile/magic atm.

e: regardless, they should both be considered lower tier.

Kills more enemies when put into 24-6 by herself.
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cmud2007
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:15 pm

I hope we can see separate tier lists for each type of events soon. Since events are the core of this game.

And I think speed should weight more. a S speed attack like twice faster than a B speed? maybe triple faster than a D speed? (poor Charles...) Chinese version may be more accurate.
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tzerherman
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:43 pm

not sure why minerva is ranked so high, anyone care to explain? Razz
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BkWiz
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:33 am

cmud2007 wrote:
I hope we can see separate tier lists for each type of events soon. Since events are the core of this game.

And I think speed should weight more. a S speed attack like twice faster than a B speed? maybe triple faster than a D speed? (poor Charles...) Chinese version may be more accurate.

Since there is a range of speeds in alphanumeric values, it's difficult to say S is x times faster than insert letter here.

However from testing, an unleadered Charles and an unleadered Vlad attack at a 1.75:1 ratio roughly.

IE Charles gets off 1.75 attacks for every Vlad attack. With speed demon this becomes 2:1 roughly.


Considering Vlad seems to have an overall value of high D speed in total attack speed, S (Charles) is roughly 2x the speed of the average D speed unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:01 am

I hope to see a monster tier list now.Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:21 am

tzerherman wrote:
not sure why minerva is ranked so high, anyone care to explain? Razz

A combination of solid stats, excellent range, decent speed and Knockback 6. She's behind Nina and Oktavia but she should be, and she has no glaring deficiencies.
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tzerherman
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:33 am

brokenchicken wrote:
tzerherman wrote:
not sure why minerva is ranked so high, anyone care to explain? Razz

A combination of solid stats, excellent range, decent speed and Knockback 6. She's behind Nina and Oktavia but she should be, and she has no glaring deficiencies.

her stats are low, 180000 total is pretty weak, considering charles has 110k and rein has 130k, and shes the next weakest, secondly 30 unit cost, but yes the speed is decent and the range is equal to nina and oktavia, but i still see no reason why she is ranked so high. still, only imo though
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clocksprocket
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:05 pm

Well the fun thing about the tierlist is that it looks at more than total max stats. And I think having 50k more stats than Rein is quite a lot -- I mean, that's like half the damage of a top-tier 5* to start with. I think what boosts her up so much is her range -- if she were in a Mina's Trials or quest, she'd be attacking for longer than other units due to 175 range. She also has good speed which makes up slightly for her lower stats.

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timlai1209
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:37 pm

=ROUND([@[Manual Adjust]]*(((SUM([@[max.Land]]*LandValue,[@[max.Air]]*AirValue,[@[max.Sea]]*SeaValue)*INDIRECT("Speed"&[@Speed]&"Value"))*(INDIRECT("Range"&[@Range]&"Value"))*INDIRECT([@Type]&"Value")*INDIRECT([@Skill]&"Value"))),0)

Do it count the deploy cost inside Question
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dakkon107



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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:00 pm

New 5* tier 1: Sogno!

Whackwhackwhackwhackwhack!!!!

j/k, she's intriguing though

also seems like Rem will be tier 2 since shes like a kyo with higher stats.
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tzerherman
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:41 pm

clocksprocket wrote:
Well the fun thing about the tierlist is that it looks at more than total max stats. And I think having 50k more stats than Rein is quite a lot -- I mean, that's like half the damage of a top-tier 5* to start with. I think what boosts her up so much is her range -- if she were in a Mina's Trials or quest, she'd be attacking for longer than other units due to 175 range. She also has good speed which makes up slightly for her lower stats.


hmm true, but i still cant see her being higher than vlad, monica, ellen and georgios, their damage is too great, making up for their lack of speed/lack of range. Again, just imo
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:00 pm

When you adding the new DB units to this?
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brokenchicken
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:08 pm

August 13, 2014.

I don't plug anything into the Magic Formula, but I can make early predictions:

* Reve is instantly the best Area Effect 6 unit in the game (so far); her ground and air attacks are balanced and strong, she has good range, comparable speed to other AE6s, and a decently fast Missile projectile. Cornelia beats her on Ground damage but by far less than she trails her in Air. That said, AE6s have tended to lag behind in tiers outside of Battle events like Venus and Goetia.

* Hwrm needs to buy a vowel. Outside of her odd name, I don't see a lot of appeal; her ground and air are weak compared to other AE5s, and she's a standard 150 range / D speed unit.

* Sogno is... unique. She gets one cool point for her hilarious attack animation and another for her surprisingly strong stats. She has the highest Slow5 attack stats in the game -- even including as-of-yet unreleased cards. However, she'll get dinged for being a Missile unit with Melee range.

* Rem is the second melee Poison5 unit and compares favorably to Kyo; slightly higher deploy cost but much better Air attack and similar speed.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:04 pm

xl_astros_lx wrote:
When you adding the new DB units to this?
I was literally in the middle of writing it up last night when I lost power. I don't have power for the next few days. I'll either pay up for wifi and do it then or I'll do it Saturday or so when I hopefully get power back.

@timlai - for these ratings, deploy cost doesn't come into effect. This is because in quests or trials, you typically have enough deploy cost to deploy what units you want. It does for the arena ratings I did though. I can post them at some point as well but I've been hesitant because the damage formula appeared slightly off (but close enough that I don't think it's such a big deal if I use it).

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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:05 pm

Okay, updated with the Dream Breaker series, I'll see if I can find stats & do some of the event rewards later.

I'm going to look into the range weighting -- while it makes sense to me how it's calculated, I may tone it down a bit and see where that gets us.

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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:54 am

Raumur omission on purpose?
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:22 am

ATROPEX wrote:
Raumur omission on purpose?

Her maxed stats are not known yet I assume.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:59 am

po1102 wrote:
ATROPEX wrote:
Raumur omission on purpose?

Her maxed stats are not known yet I assume.
This. Once her max stats are known I'll insert her into the list as well as update zoebeagle's unit spreadsheet.

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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:31 am

Still don't get that why Meg is in tier 1. scratch
Comparing to Rem, which is in tier 3, Meg has lower total stats, lower speed ,higher deploy cost and same skill. Franziska also has the similar situation. Just because Meg has bigger range, which has no use in Boss and arena event???
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:00 pm

I'm going to look into range eventually, yes. That or have some kind of overall usefulness rating considering 1) normal/quest usage 2) arena usage and 3) boss battle usage. I have the first two calculated so I'd just need to figure out the third, but that one depends primarily on speed ratings and there is some contention there.

That said, I think we should look at stats:

Meg: 33750 / 15750 / 28050 [total: 77550] / C / 175
Franziska: 32100 / 24950 / 27000 [total: 84050] / C / 150
Rem: 28550 / 28550 / 23400 [total: 80500] / B /130

Meg has the highest land and sea, although it's true her air attack lags behind. Her biggest advantage is the 175 range.

Here is how range is weighted:
Range | Time on Target
130 | 1
150 | 1.16
175 | 1.35
200 | 1.55

Time on target was found by placing two similar units on the field (with different ranges) and calculating for how long they attacked units that came their way. A range of 175 has a lot more time to keep attacking than a range 130 unit, which is why Meg is better than Rem and Franz.

However, people did bring up the fact that even in quests or trials, you often have supporting units (knockback, slow, etc) that can push units back into the zone or slow them down. That said, I think we've all seen a unit with larger range finish off something that got away that a 130 range unit hadn't.

If you're curious, with slightly devalued range, Franz and Meg are virtually identical and 2nd tier-ish.

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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:42 pm

Well, if you weight range like that, Alexandra should be ranked at least better than Faith. His stats is roughly 186755*1.55=289470, while Faith is 180615*1.16=209513. Obviously there won't be a 30% difference between two adjacent speed level.

But the fact is that most people (including me) do not pay much attention to attack range. One reason may be range doesn't have any effect in arena and boss battle. As for normal quest, we don't get any special rewards even we do the best, do we?
Another reason may be even in normal quests range doesn't have too much effect either. The calculation above would only apply to ideal situation, which means the unit should attack one monster from that monster just walk in the range to it walk away form the range. However, this situation doesn't happened a lot. More common one may be a row or a bunch of monsters come together. If a hero is not strong enough, when he finish attacking one monster, the next one is almost walking to the edge. So you can see him always attacking at the one single place. If a hero is strong enough to kill a monster in one or two hit, he would also hitting at the same place where monsters walk in his range. In both case attack range have little impact to the result.
Generally speaking, if there are enough monster to keep a hero attacking continuously(which is quite common in quests), the extra attack time benefits form bigger range is neglectable compared to the whole attack time.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:38 pm

Thank you Clock for keeping this updated!

And i really love reading the discussion here.
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PostSubject: Re: Struesdell's Tier Lists [11/3/12]   Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:54 pm

But I don't just weight by total stats -- they're each individually weighted (as noted in the first post) rather than combined, and speed and skill are a factor as well. Alexander sucks, and even his ratings reflect that -- his high range doesn't save him from being bottom in rating. So no, Faith and Alexander are not the same, and that's for a reason. (Faith has her own reasons for not being a great unit.)

These ratings are general usefulness based on attack stats, range, skill, speed, etc. Perhaps they're more useful in Trials and Tower (non-boss) than arena & boss ratings, but I note that these aren't arena ratings regardless. I have arena ratings I could post, but I am not sure how fullproof they are so I may wait. (But because these current ratings take into account things like attack score and speed, they serve as a good general metric for how well that unit will do elsewhere.)

I agree that range may not be important in 24-6 or 27-6 etc -- but let's be honest, you can do most of these blind without worrying as long as you deploy enough units. If we consider usefulness only in these quests, then you may as well get yourself a 5* or 6* and call it a day. But if we want to have a way to compare units to each other (in a slightly more sophisticated manner than "hey, this unit has higher total max stats! yay!") then I think incorporating things like speed and range is pretty important.

With bosses, high attack and high speed is key. If you really care about that, sort zoebeagle's list by max ___ attack and call it a day there as well.

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